Ingrid Silva on building a legacy in ballet, one pointe shoe at a time

IS: 00:00

So if I would go to like a reception or a place that people didn't know me and I had to introduce myself, I would say, hey, my name is Ingrid Silva. I'm a professional ballerina. And people would be like, a ballerina? Like, why wouldn't you think I was a ballerina?

TS: 00:18

Welcome to Made For Us, the show where we explore how intentional design can help build a world that works better for everyone. I'm your host, Tosin Sulaiman. My guest today is the Brazilian-born ballet dancer Ingrid Silva. Ingrid is a member of Dance Theatre of Harlem, a multi-ethnic company that was founded in 1969 by the late Arthur Mitchell, the first black dancer with the New York City Ballet. He invited Ingrid to join the company's summer program in 2007 after seeing her dance in a video and she eventually joined the professional company in 2013.

Beyond ballet, Ingrid has worked with brands like Nike, Dove and Dior. She's appeared on the cover of Vogue Brazil while pregnant and she's written a best-selling memoir. In this conversation, we talk about Ingrid's journey and what's changed since she became a mother. We also talk about how ballet is becoming more diverse and why she sees this as an incredible business opportunity. Here she is.

IS: 01:15

My name is Ingrid Silva. I am from Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. I am a professional ballet dancer. I am a mother, a businesswoman, a writer, an activist, and many other things.

TS: 01:30

You sent me your bio and you have such a fascinating and impressive list of accomplishments, as you mentioned, writer, dancer. One of the many things that stood out to me was that in 2020, you had a shoe inducted into the Smithsonian Museum of African American History and Culture. So I'd love to start with that. Tell us the story behind that shoe and how it ended up in a museum.

IS: 01:58

Yeah, so Dance Theatre of Harlem has been an incredible foundation about diversity in arts. And Arthur Mitchell really changed the dance world by having his dancers pancaking their shoes to their skin tone color. So, pancaking is when you get like a makeup, a base or anything that matches your skin tone and you use that makeup for your face. Usually dancers use this kind of makeup as well to color their shoes, their skin tone. So since I joined Dance Theatre, I learned how to pancake my shoes. So I pancake them for 11 years. But when the George Floyd movement happened, I started a conversation with the company that makes my shoes.

And it's important to say that even though that tragic moment happened, a lot of the companies were like, yes, we are in for diversity. Those things can't happen anymore. But I believe sometimes it was more of a talk and not a real action. So then the pointe shoes that I wore, in Europe, they already had my color. They already had them brown, but they didn't have it in America.

IS: 03:21

And so I started a conversation with this company for two years, convincing them how important it was to make those pointe shoes more inclusive, not just talking about diversity, but making the diversity happen. And it was, it took a lot of perseverance, you know, because in the dance world, you still see that there are not many of us, not many black dancers. It's getting better, but it's not there yet. You know, the world is so diverse, so the stage should reflect as such.

IS: 03:56

So after those two years talking, talking, and finally those pointe shoes came, my color, and I will never forget when I saw those shoes, they blew me away. It felt that I was accomplishing something in speaking about diversity, bringing this topic alive because it was so important. And I think because of the fact that I've been pancake in my shoes for so long, the Smithsonian is the first African-American museum that brings all of this kind of arts, culture and understanding in the world. And so they have a gallery in there on the fifth floor in the artistic part that showcases the Dance Theatre of Harlem story. And my point shoes became part of the exhibition. And it's so beautiful and rewarding to see the shoes there. You know, I'm Dance Theatre of Harlem legacy. I've been in the company now for 11 seasons, but in the institution for 15 years. And it's a place that I call home. It's a place that I'm very thankful for. I've had many and wonderful opportunities growing up as an artist. And that's how those shoes end up at the museum.

TS: 05:20

And shoes have been a big theme in your career. You published a memoir a few years ago and I was intrigued by the title. It was in Portuguese. It translates as The Pointe Shoe That Changed My World. So for those who haven't read your book yet or who waiting for the English translation, tell us a little bit about your story, where it all began, how you got started in ballet.

IS: 05:46

So I started ballet at the age of eight years old. I've been always very energetic. My mom put me in a lot of activities, me and my brother. A neighbor where I used to live in Brazil mentioned to my mom that a dance project was opening its doors to an audition. And we come from a very simple family, like our background. And so we never had contact with arts except when you watched anything on TV, meaning singing, dancing, but classical ballet was so far away, not even close to my upbringing. And when I auditioned, the teacher saw something in me. She told my mom that I was very talented, that she would take me in to teach me classes. Meanwhile, which is interesting, and I always think about this, since I was a little girl, until an adult, I've never bought a pointe shoe with my own money. The dance school provided us with leotard, tights, and pointe shoes. And so, the first time I tried specific pointe shoes for myself, so I auditioned for this dance project called Dançando Para Não Dançar in Rio. I danced at this dance project for almost 10 years, so I was there until 18.

I danced at Escola de Dança Maria Olenewa, which was another dance school at Teatro Municipal in Brazil. I got to dance with Grupo Corpo in my early stages. Grupo Corpo is a big contemporary company in Brazil. They're very well known. And then a friend's teacher came by to teach at my dance school. And she used to be a principal at Dance Theatre of Harlem. Her name is Bethania Gomes. So she's a former principal dancer with the company. And she mentioned to me, send your video. I think you have a great potential to join the company. And I was so young, I didn't have any idea that that could be a thing. But I sent my video. At the time, it was DVD and it got lost in the mail.

IS: 08:02

And then I was so worried. I was like, oh my God, what's going to happen? Then we did it again. We send it. And guess who saw the video? The founder, Arthur Mitchell. And he invited me to come to the Summer Intensive in 2007. And in 2008, I had an amazing opportunity to come to study. And then so in 2008, I joined the school. I was in the school for three months. And then after that, I joined the Dance Theatre of Harlem Ensemble that performed and traveled all over the world. And then in 2013, when Virginia Johnson brought the company back, she invited me to join the company.

TS: 08:44

It's interesting how you say that where you grew up, know, ballet wasn't really something that you knew about or that people in your neighborhood might have aspired to. So what was it that drew you to ballet?

IS: 08:58

I don't know. I think it just the neighbor really saying, hey, do you want to take her to class? I never dreamed to be a ballerina. I think it's beautiful to say that ballet actually found me. And through this art form, as I learned every day, I loved learning new things. And then so I think the challenge that ballet brought in, it drove me to love more and more the experience of becoming a dancer.

TS: 09:32

So you talked about how you got discovered by Dance Theatre of Harlem and you moved to New York. And Dance Theatre of Harlem is this legendary company that was founded by Arthur Mitchell after the assassination of Martin Luther King. And it does have a mission. Can you talk about that mission and what that meant in practice?

IS: 09:54

Yeah, I think Dance Theatre of Harlem, it's one of the biggest leading companies in the world. And I think the mission that brings this company so much alive, it's the diversity in the company. We have dancers from all over the world and all skin tones, which is completely different when you see in other companies, you don't see as much diversity. But I think we also have a beautiful diversity in our rep, in everything that we dance. We go from very, very classical Balanchine ballet to neoclassical, to contemporary, to James Brown. So it's very diverse. And I think that's the beauty that the company has and the legacy itself.

TS: 10:48

So coming from Brazil, which has a huge black population, was there anything like Dance Theatre of Harlem?

IS: 10:55

I don't think so. There still isn't, which is sad. Brazil has 60 % of black people in Bahia. But the country itself doesn't have as much diversity. When we talk about dance, you see ballet companies in Brazil. We only have two ballet companies, main ones. We have many contemporary companies, and still there is not much diversity. Teatro Municipal, which is a bigger theater in Rio, still doesn't have a Black principal dancer. And it's one of the biggest theaters we have. I wrote it in my book. I did some research. It has what, 150 years, and still now, in this century, we still don't have a Black principal dancer. So there is nothing quite like Dance Theatre of Harlem anywhere, I guess.

TS: 11:48

And what was your experience training to be a ballet dancer in Brazil before you moved to New York? Do you ever think about what kind of career you would have had if you had stayed?

IS: 11:58

I wouldn't have a career, I think, if I would have stayed or I wouldn't be successful in my career. There was always an excuse when I would audition. So I auditioned for all the companies you can imagine. And there was always, oh, you need to work on this or you need to get better at that or you need to do this and that. Then interesting to say that when I auditioned for Dance Theatre of Harlem, when I left Brazil, every door opened. And I wonder if it was because I was a black woman in a very white, predominantly art form, which it still is.

TS: 12:39

And nowadays, inclusivity in ballet is a topic that's got a lot of attention, particularly the need for pointe shoes in diverse skin tones. But this conversation actually started decades ago, and I believe it was Dance Theatre of Harlem that brought the issue to light.

IS: 12:55

Dance Theatre of Harlem has been founded since 1969. So they've been speaking about diversity and point you since then. It's been years. I personally started sharing about my journey on YouTube and any other social media platform. When Instagram came out, I started sharing about my journey, what I was doing. And then people started seeing and being like, wow, I didn't have any idea that you were coloring your shoes because your shoes are supposed to match your skin tone. I mean, historically, for those who don't know, the tights when they were created and the pointe shoes were supposed to match people's skin tone. And when you wear tights and pointe shoes that match your skin tone, you can show one long uninterrupted line that you can see your line when you dance. So when Arthur Mitchell created this, you know, when he created the uniformization of having pointe shoe and tights that match every dancer's skin tone, that was a game changer. Because I think historically people didn't know.

TS: 14:04

So tell us about your pancaking routine. What were you using to dye your shoes? How much time were you spending?

IS: 14:12

Yeah, so when I used to pancake my shoes, I would take two hours of my day to first of all, sew my pointe shoes and get them ready. Then I would buy this makeup from this brand called Black Opal and my shade was ebony brown. And I would get this makeup and get a sponge and kind of like dab into the sponge, dab into the shoes. That process would take me 30 minutes to color my shoes.

And as much as it was therapeutic, I would say that was very tiring too. And also it felt like in a way that I didn't belong because everybody else was able to just put their pointe shoes on and then just go. And why was I still coloring mine? It didn't feel very inclusive to me. And so I used to always reflect about this process. I can't quite explain to you how it felt because it was always like a bit of a question for me.

TS: 15:18

Right. And you said that you did this for 11 years. So, I mean, it must get pretty tedious by the end. How much did all of this cost? Because you said the shoes were provided by the company, but presumably the makeup you had to pay for yourself.

IS: 15:36

Yeah. So that would cost me each bottle $11. And then one day I was doing an interview here and I think the brand noticed that I was using their stuff. And then they reached out to me and they were like, hey, we heard that you are using our makeup. We would like to provide you with one year supply.

TS: 16:00

Wow.

IS: 16:01

And that really helped me. That really helped me and I saved money because the company covered the pointe shoes but not the makeup. And that was very expensive.

TS: 16:16

So in a given year, how much do you think you would have spent on the makeup for your pointe shoes?

IS: 16:24

I don't know. Maybe more than $2,000 for sure because my foot's very strong and then so I practically wear one pair of pointe shoes a week depending on what kind of ballet we are dancing. And so can you imagine coloring all of those? Yeah, it's a lot of money.

TS: 16:46

So it's a huge cost in terms of time, in terms of money.

IS: 16:49

Yeah, it's a huge cost in terms of everything, you know, I'm glad I don't have to do this process anymore. This is really rewarding. I feel like it's a step ahead.

TS: 17:00

And so a lot of people were surprised when brown pointe shoes first came out. You know, a lot of people were saying, why hasn't this happened already? What's your take on why this took so long?

IS: 17:14

Well, when I was talking to the brand that I really want those pointe shoes to come out in my skin tone, not that I heard from them firsthand, but through the industry that they never made it because it wouldn't sell. Like, this is not the people that they're trying to reach. And then so when you talk about inclusivity, yes, it looks beautiful when you post on Instagram that you have black dancers who are modeling for your leotards, for your tights, but you're actually not making those products. Like, because you don't believe that people, the consumers who are those skin tones will buy that. And I think that's a problem in the market in general, because if we talk about inclusivity, what kind of inclusivity is that, that you don't see us buying things?

IS: 18:06

And I think that opens my eyes more and more because I've always said that I wanted to create my own brand of tights, my own brands of pointe shoes, because first of all, I'm really tired of battling for something that should have been done long time ago. There is more black dancers performing all over the world. And then so why we don't have the tools that we need. And then I also think that I wanted to take these matters in my own hand because I speak so much about diversity and inclusivity. Why not create something that it's so meaningful in many ways. Right now, we do have some brands who make tights and pointe shoes and things like that, but there should be more. You know, the same colors or the same market that you see for pink tights and leotards and all of that, you should see for skin tone too. And I don't think we have enough.

TS: 19:10

And it was interesting because I saw on Instagram that Dance Theatre of Harlem mentioned that they pancaked over 650 pairs of shoes in 2024. So I thought pancaking was a thing of the past. Am I wrong?

IS: 19:23

No, I don't think so. So this is the other thing. I always say this, as black people, we are like more than 50 shades. We all have different skin tones. So in the company currently, I am able and few others to have shoes that match their skin tone, but not everybody because we are not all the same color. So when you look around the group, you have few people who can have their own shoes and put it on and go. And some people that still has to color them. So this is still a fact. Some of the dancers still have to color their shoes.

TS: 20:01

And what about the experience of just walking into a store and being able to buy them?

IS: 20:07

There is not such a thing sometimes because a lot of those shoes you have to custom order them. So you cannot just walk in a store and buy one. It would be amazing if we could, but some of the brands don't carry those shoes in the store. So you have to buy them online. So there is also this experience. Like, you're talking about diversity, inclusivity, but you don't have it in a store. Then how does that work?

TS: 20:33

And you mentioned that you've been thinking about starting your own brand of tights and shoes. Can you say more about that?

IS: 20:39

Yeah, I have started like my research and working on it. It's been on plans for the last five years. I'm very inspired by Rihanna. What she did with makeup, it opened my eyes to so much more in general. And I was already inspired in creating a line that speaks to every shade, you know, and it's a really inclusive brand and I'm working on it and soon you will hear more.

TS: 21:10

And you actually founded an organization, Blacks in Ballet, which I first discovered on Instagram. And I think the idea is to bring visibility to dancers of color. Can you tell us a little bit more about the mission of that organization?

IS: 21:24

Yeah, Black St. Ballet was founded in 2019. I am so, so happy and so proud to create something alongside my friends. We are an online platform that was originated also after George Floyd because we thought that it was not just important to talk about diversity, but bring this diversity to light, you know? Share more about these dancers' stories, about these dancers' life and creating a platform to give them visibility. You know, I was tired of people like... So if I would go to, like, a reception or a place that people didn't know me and I had to introduce myself, I would say, hey, my name is Ingrid Silva. I'm a professional ballerina. And people would be like, a ballerina? It felt like sort of an ET, you know, like an interesting feeling. Like, why wouldn't you think I was a ballerina?

And then, I was like, you know what, maybe if I create this platform when I'm giving more visibility to dancers of color, just like myself, when people ask me, I'll be like, yes, I am a ballerina. And you know what, you have never seen one, go to Blacks in Ballet. And that would give not just one version or one person, it would give them many. And sort of what's growing more now, I started working on my choreography.

IS: 222:50

And so I'm bringing Blacks in Ballet more to life. This year, I've got some people that I know, dancers that I know, also from Blacks in Ballet, that got to perform in few of my choreographies that I showcase. So we were invited to perform at Fire Island Dance Festival. We were invited to perform at Bryant Park here in New York and many other places. And I felt extremely happy, you know, because this visibility is just not an online visibility, but we bring this to reality.

TS: 23:23

What are your ambitions for Blacks in Ballet? What other projects are you working on?

IS: 23:28

I wanna create my own show, but like a performance where I bring black dancers from all over the world and we create this beautiful gala. I really dream of that and I think it will happen. We have hosted many masterclasses at Blacks in Ballet. We have helped actually dancers with scholarships and connections to dance schools. So it's more of like this amazing great network that we get to build in order to have those dancers and have more visibility in our community. I think that's really important and that's my goal.

TS: 24:07

Another underrepresented group of people you've been quite vocal about is mothers. And I understand that in this current generation of dancers, you were the first at the Dance Theatre of Harlem to become pregnant.

IS: 24:19

Yeah. So in the group that we have now, since I joined in, we haven't had many mothers and I think it's really important, especially nowadays, to speak about being a mother, being a work woman and being a dancer. We quite often see in the market or in the industry that when women become pregnant and they're dancers, people just tell them, you know, you became a mother, so you can't dance anymore. Not with these words, but that's what starts happening. And then people are left on the side. They are not given the opportunity.

And I feel like I am so blessed because I've been in a company that it's very much like a family. When I had Laura at the time, the artistic director was Virginia Johnson and she didn't just take me back, but, which I love, she took me and Laura back. She embraced both of us. I will always cherish that because not many directors do that. There is also the business side of it when it takes a woman almost a year to get back in shape. And even though you don't, I feel like now in a way I am finally starting to feel myself. And Laura is only four. So it takes a while. And in dance sometimes people just don't have the time. They're like, we need things for now. Like we need things for tomorrow. And giving birth and coming back, it's not like a tomorrow situation. It takes time. And so I'm grateful that I had the time. I took the time to come back. I never felt pressure.

IS: 26:13

She never pressured me to be back at work. Always very, very supportive, you know, and it's rare to see that. People are always rushed to come back. Most of them get fired. They don't say why, they don't have to, but we know. And then so when we created Dancers in Motherhood, me and a few other amazing dancers, we thought about creating a platform to support mothers because we know how hard is the industry. And we also wanted to change that. Why you can't be a mother and work at the same time? Like, this is so old school, you know? And then so I think living those experiences, I travelled with Laura for the first three years of her life. And it was one of the most beautiful things because it's an art form. It's not like a desk job where she can't experience. So having her in the audience, watching me dance, it made her even flourish to choose what she wants to be now. I mean, she says now she wants to be a dancer, who knows? But I'm hoping when she actually dances, if she takes this serious, the dance world will be a better place than it was when I was in it.

TS: 27:31

I wonder how it changed your view of yourself. I mean, as a ballet dancer, you must be used to constant scrutiny of your body. Did you feel that even more after you had Laura?

IS: 27:45

I mean, it was really hard for me to acknowledge that I was pregnant, I would say. Now that I feel more comfortable saying that out loud, I wasn't before. As dancers, you are always criticizing yourself 24-7. You have to have the perfect body. You have to have the perfect look. You become people's pleaser all the time. You are looking for an approval. I mean, let alone thinking that, can you imagine in a way that your whole life and your career are in the hands of a director, either woman or man, if you don't have a good director or a good teacher or a good person or a great leadership around you, then it's really hard to succeed in your career.

TS: 28:31

I know we've talked about the brand that you're thinking about launching. We've talked about choreography. What else can we expect from you in the next few years?

IS: 28:40

I think people can expect a lot from me in the next few years inside and outside of this stage. I have gone to Harvard a few years ago to learn about business for athletes, which is a program that they have. So this is a move I'm doing in my career, also as launching my business. I wanna keep creating a space that dancers feel welcome. I wanna launch my festival. I wanna keep working on my choreography. Maybe I wanna write another book. And just keep creating, you know? There is no limits for the things that you wanna do when you put your mind into and when you have support.

TS: 29:17

And I hope you add to that list the English translation of your current book because I would love to read it.

IS: 29:23

My gosh, yes, I'm so for it. We’re still hunting publishers. So maybe if you are listening and you are a publisher and you are inspired by my story, please do reach out. I would love, love, love to publish my book in English because I think it will bring a lot more visibility. We'll talk about my story. We'll give the people who admire arts a different point of view and a very inspirational point of view. So yeah, I'm really excited about that and hope it happens soon!

TS: 29:56

Yeah, fingers crossed. Thanks so much for joining me Ingrid. It’s been such a pleasure to speak to you.

IS: 30:00

Thank you so much for having me!

TS: 30:07

Thank you to Ingrid Silva. You'll find some links in the show notes if you'd like to follow her journey. If you enjoyed this, you should also check out our Season 1 episodes with Ballet Black founder, Cassa Pancho and dancer, Cira Robinson. And don't forget to text this to a friend who hasn't heard about Made For Us yet. I'm Tosin Sulaiman. See you next time.