Bridging the gap, part 2: How data is shaping the future of eyewear, with Reframd's Shariff Vreugd

SV 0:00

The reaction that we got was that basically people were telling us that I never thought of this. And now I understand why the glasses didn't fit me. And people were especially happy that there was a company that saw them because many people feel neglected by certain product offerings without even knowing that they're being neglected. So, when we explain to them that we are there for you, people felt very happy and surprised at the same time.

TS 0:29

Welcome to Made For Us, a podcast about the intersection of innovation and inclusion. It's for anyone who's curious about how to develop products that work better for all of us. I'm your host, Tosin Sulaiman, a podcaster and former business journalist. My guest today is Shariff Vreugd, co founder of Reframd, a Berlin based startup that's rethinking the conventional approach to eyewear frame design. Shariff and his co founder Ackeem Ngwenya started Reframd after multiple encounters with ill-fitting glasses, and a realization that most glasses in stores didn't cater to people with low and wide nose profiles. In this episode Shariff tells me how Reframd's Kickstarter campaign confirmed that there was a need for more inclusive eyewear and how they're using the data and insights they've gathered to develop industry standards.

SV 1:13

We can help our brands to produce the right frames at the right time and also prevent them over producing and throwing away millions of frames.

TS 1:23

This is the second in a two-part special on inclusive eyewear. If you haven't already, check out my interview with Florence Shin and Athina Wang, the cofounders of Covry. Please note that Made for Us will be taking a short break over the holidays. And I'll be back with a new episode on the fourth of January. Now here's Shariff from Reframd.

SV 1:41

So I'm the co founder of Reframd, and we are an eyewear startup. And our mission is actually to make the eyewear industry more inclusive by offering products that fit multiple faces.

TS 1:52

I'd like to talk about how the idea for Reframd came about, I understand that this stemmed from your own personal experiences, and also that you had quite a specific target audience in mind at the beginning.

SV 2:03

Yeah, that's true. I moved to Berlin Twenty Nineteen. And my brother was visiting me, we went to a festival called African food festival. And that's where I saw Ackeem walking around with 3d printed frames, he actually saw me while he was walking around, and he asked me if I could try it on. The moment I try this prototype frame on, I realized that the frame is actually very comfortable, especially the fit around my nose. And I remember when I was in primary school, that I had to wear glasses, but stopped wearing them after a couple of months, because it wasn't a comfortable experience. And so Ackeem explained to me a bit why he was doing this. And funnily enough, he had the same experience with eyewear, which meant that if it's just us, you know then most likely more people that experience the same issue with eyewear. And that's where we kind of decided to make eyewear for black people's nose profiles, because we believe that the eyewear industry is not catering to all diverse faces that the world has to offer. And we think that everybody should be able to find the correct fitting frame.

TS 3:12

That's interesting. So how black people's nose profiles or facial features different from, say, Europeans.

SV 3:20

So if you compare a Caucasian nose, it's different in the sense that they are higher and smaller than our nose bridge. So black people usually have a wider and lower nose, which which means that the, the frame is kind of leaning not correctly on the nose. And also when people wear a frame, the nose is carrying most of the weight. So if you have a frame that isn't suitable for your nose profile, it automatically will cause discomfort. And actually, that is now I'm saying it like I knew this for always very long time. But it's something I had to learn. Because we see that consumers usually just accept products from from companies without even thinking, who's behind the company. And who are those people that developing those products? And for Who are they doing that? So it's a massive learning school basically, also in terms of my own genetics in comparison with product offering from different companies.

TS 4:22

So black is a pretty broad category, because even among Black people, there's a lot of diversity and I think you and Ackeem are a perfect example of that, given your own very different backgrounds.

SV 4:35

Yes. So that's very difficult. When we try to write their marketing copy down, we also realize that how should we phrase it? How should we call our target audience because not all black people identify as black? For example, I'm from Suriname, at least my parents are from Suriname. Ackeem is from South Africa. And we see that also some people in the Caribbean rather identify themselve as Afro Caribbean or in America, you've Afro Americans. So it's a very complex topic. And we basically decided to call our target audience initially Afropolitan. So basically, black people from the African diaspora who are well traveled, who are educated, and they can be anywhere in the world. But it's super interesting, because when people hear black people, they expect just everybody bit like this, the skin color, but it's much, much, much deeper than that.

TS 5:36

Yeah. And were you surprised that no one else was catering to this group of people at the time?

SV 5:43

Actually, yes, because the moment he got a bit of press, and especially on Twitter, our story went a bit like it didn't go viral. But we got quite some intention. And the reaction that we got was that, basically, people were telling us that I never thought of this. And now I understand why the glasses didn't fit me. And people were especially happy that there was a company that saw them, because many people feel neglected by certain product offerings without even knowing that they're being neglected. So when we explain to them that we are there for you, people felt very happy and surprised at the same time. I think it's also being included, because that was completely missing, especially in our industry.

TS 6:32

And why do you think that eyewear industry wasn't catering specifically to Black consumers?

SV 6:37

I think it's because the industry itself is not diverse enough. If you look at the big corporations, basically, you can just tell from a company if it's inclusive enough, not necessarily from the product offering, because you should look at the team behind who are working on the product. So if you have a lot of Caucasian people working on a project, most likely their biases will go into the product. And if you have a diverse team, you have much more input. And people will kind of explain much better and realize that if something needs to work for a lot of people, you also need to have a lot of diverse people, right.

TS 7:14

But at the same time, a number of the major eyewear companies do cater to Asian consumers, you know, you do get Asian fit eyewear.

SV 7:23

That's quite interesting, because we also realized that there was an Asian fit and Asian people, especially Southeast Asian people that have a similar nose type as black people a bit lower, also wider. And I think it has to do with consumer power, because a lot of those brands that offer Asian fit, like you have the designer eyewear brands, but also like massive direct to consumer brands like Warby Parker, and also has an Asian fit. But the interesting part of that it's not very visible, you always have to look for it, you have to scroll a lot click on certain links to find that. So we think that shouldn't be the case. Regardless of where you from, how your face look, it should be easy to find the correct fitting frame. So I think it's more to put those people in the forefront and not kind of hiding them.

TS 8:17

So how did you come to the conclusion that there was a big enough market for your product?

SV 8:23

So we were approached by Kickstarter and Ackeem and i were initially very skeptical because we were also realizing that on Kickstarter, the majority of the people that donate money are white men, and after some thought, after some discussions, we decided to just give it a go. And we had a successful Kickstarter campaign two years ago in summer of Twenty Twenty-one, where we shaped or sold more than four hundred glasses, which means that our case, it meant for us that okay, there is a need for correct fitting eyewear regardless of how people their face look or what ethnicity they have. It's not only black people that struggle to find the correct fitting eyewear. So basically, after the Kickstarter campaign, we said, perfect, there's a market for this and now we have to capitalize on this on this market.

TS 9:20

And how big do you think that market is?

SV 9:22

So I think it's big, I don't know the exact numbers but if you look at the amount of people that at least we are talking to that say yo, I've been looking for eyewear my whole life and yeah, it's just hard to find something and especially people with with like a slightly bigger face or smaller or bigger nose. They see that this one size fits all offering that most current eyewear players do, that just doesn't work for everybody. And at the same time, it's also understandable because if you have to customize frames it will be more expensive. So I think that's where our that's the gap that we found in the market that there is space for some much more tailored experience for eyewear.

TS: 10:10

Right, and looking at the industry as a whole demand for eyewear is increasing. So I guess you're also looking to benefit from that growth.

SV: 10:19

Yeah, exactly. And that also is due to screen usage. Because we look, basically 24/7 at the screen, people will need eyewear, it's projected that by Twenty fifty, half the world's population needs eyewear, and half the world's population isn't only white, which means that there are so many people in need of eyewear. And I think we are at the forefront with Reframd, to cater to a diverse and inclusive world.

TS: 10:49

So let's talk about determining the fit of a pair of glasses, what are the main elements to consider.

SV: 10:56

So the main elements is the nose bridge, this is where most of the weight of the frame is being carried by the nose. And then you have the temples. People feel usually discomfort, especially at the nose and with the temples. And our solution actually was that we created an app. Based on this app, we scan your face. And based on that scan, we produce a custom frame. And basically what that does was that every frame that we sold was unique for the customer. And I think this first promise or we are creating your unique frame and your perfect fitting frame, that gave us quite a good value proposition to get more clients in.

TS: 11:42

So if people are listening, and they're wondering, are my glasses fitting correctly? How can they tell?

SV: 11:48

So when you look at especially people with wide and low nose bridges, if you have a gap between the frame and your nose, that means the nose bridge isn't correct for you. And usually people that have that gap are wearing wearing a frame that is mainly designed for a higher, and smaller nose bridge. And the same you can have some tension at the temple, at the ear, and also a frame should be firm on your head. So if you shake, it shouldn't fall off. Or if you move your head, it should should fit stable.

TS: 12:23

And also, it's not just about looking good because if the frame doesn't fit, this also affects how the lenses work, doesn't it?

SV: 12:29

Exactly. Which means that let's say you have a frame that sits too low on your nose, that can happen that you look over your lenses. And then you have kind of two different visions, which means that at some point, when you look over the lenses, you see normal and then you look slightly down, you have this you have this vision off of the lenses, and that can cause headache. So you have to make sure that your face or the the eyes are in the center of the lenses.

TS: 12:59

So I'm curious about how you define your target customer now, how that's evolved, because you're now looking at different demographics beyond black people, aren't you?

SV: 13:09

Exactly. And so like I said, we started off with eyewear for black people's most profiles, and realized that, then it's not only black people that need correct fitting eyewear. So after the custom frame, we decided to trying to make our frames, every frame comes in multiple variations. So every frame comes in a wide nose bridge, a low nose bridge and a high nose bridge. And at the same time, the same frame also comes in small, medium and large. That means we have nine different variations of each frame. So if you're a customer, regardless of how your face looks, it should be one frame that is suitable for you. And the reason why we did this or how we could do this is that because of the the app that we have created, where people scan their face, and then get the frame now we use all this data to segment people. So if somebody tells us or send a picture of their face, we basically know how to categorize them. And that's how we created those nine different variations of each frame.

TS: 14:19

So you're no longer doing customization for each customer. But you're doing a sort of semi customized product.

SV: 14:27

It's still an option for the customers who really want to have a custom frame. But it's also a slightly more expensive option. So this makes also Reframd more inclusive, because it's our goal to be very accessible. But I think that the custom frames really put us on the map.

TS: 14:46

So I wanted to talk about how you fundraised for the company. I know that you did a Kickstarter campaign, but you also spoke to a number of investors in the early stages. Can you tell me about how those conversations went?

SV: 14:58

Yes, I think fundraising is hard. Fundraising is hard for every entrepreneur. But I think as a minority person in the west part of Europe, especially in Berlin, it has its own challenges, and also our product, because if you, especially in the beginning where we talked about eyewear for black people, all those investors, most of them, they don't look like us, we have a problem that they don't experience. So sometimes it feels like you start with one zero behind, and you have to convince them, they don't experience the problem. So they might tell you, it's not a problem. So I think when it comes to investors, it's so important to try to find the ones that see this potential. It's like a marriage, you should not force or convince somebody to marry you. Because I think that will not benefit the dynamic for a long time. So when we talk with investors, we first try to understand them, do they understand our problem? Do they understand what we're trying to build? And do they understand the market because when we talk about diverse faces, it's not only in the West, you know, the world is very big. And the market is actually massive. People sometimes refer to us as a niche product. But I always disagree with people that say that because outside the West, there are so many more people and with spending power as well. So when it comes to investors, it's really trying to find the one that is that has a similar mindset as us and trying to see if we can connect on the same level.

TS: 16:40

And do you think you've been able to find those investors?

SV: 16:43

We have found, well, we have investors, but we don't have professional institutional investors yet. We have some angel investors. And also we got some we got awarded by Google for the black Founders Fund. So you clearly see that there are parties and people that support us, and I think also in it's also a fortunate situation to be in because we are, it's still a small team. And the moment when we will sign a contract with a bigger institutional investor, it needs to be the right one. And we haven't found that one yet.

TS: 17:22

Okay. And I wanted to ask you about the learning curve when you were developing the product. When you started out, how much knowledge did you have about what it takes to build an eyewear brand?

SV: 17:33

That's an interesting question. Because Ackeem and I both don't have any experience in eyewear or our only experience was that we thought that eyewear was not made for us, because we we had issues with finding correct fitting eyewear. And at the same time, I think if you want to disrupt the market, sometimes it actually helps to be an outsider, because you look at things completely different. If you look at the current eyewear companies now, of course, there are a lot of companies with apps and trying to give you the perfect fitting frame. But we started with that, that was our value proposition. So in terms of learning curve, I think we had to learn a lot about eyewear. But so as a founder and especially as an outsider, you have to wear different hats. And basically, you have to keep your mind open and talk a lot with people that know more than you. For example, we have an optician who helps us determining prescription and all those things.

TS: 18:40

And also you had to do quite a lot of education at the beginning for your target audience because like you said, a lot of people may have just accepted things the way they were or concluded that it was them and not the glasses.

SV: 18:55

Yeah, exactly. So I think a big part of Reframd is also educating people by just not selling a product, but I think it's really important for people to know why we are selling a product because if you if you talk with a person, and somebody will tell you, I'm going to start an eyewear brand. I will tell you right away the world doesn't need another eyewear brand. You need to have some you need to add some value. And I always say you either need to make somebody's life easier, happier. So solve a problem and we really believe at Reframd that we are solving a problem for millions of people.

TS: 19:34

So I believe you launched your first collection in Twenty twenty-one Tell us about that initial collection, how the launch went, what the reaction was.

SV: 19:44

So yeah, that was during the Kickstarter campaign as well. And we I think we started off with four frames and they all have names that has something to do with the places we coming from. For example, there's a frame called Planga and Planga is a Surinamese word that means plank. But in Amsterdam planga is used as a tool to describe eyewear in street slang. So the first collection is something that is very close to us. And since there were only four frames, it was for people quite easy to pick, they came in a lot of fun colors. And yeah the response was, was very positive. And it's quite interesting because if you launch four frames, after a month or two, you clearly see which one sells better. And then you make like iterations of those worlds for the next collection. So launching is, it's scary, because when something is out there, it's out there, you cannot control anymore what people are saying about your product. But for us, it was also very interesting. And I think, slightly stressful, but also happy, successful time.

TS: 20:58

And did you launch with both sunglasses and regular glasses? Or did you start with sunglasses?

SV: 21:04

We started with sunglasses, because if you launch with eyewear, eyeglasses, that's slightly tricky. Because prescription lenses, you need so much more data from the customer. So we decided to start with sunglasses, which is slightly easier to easier to purchase.

TS: 21:22

Okay, and so tell me about how the product has since evolved.

SV: 21:27

So our frames were, I wouldn't call our frames back in the days very extravagant. They were quite anonymous. They were not, they were for most people suitable. But our latest collection, the Meta collection which is basically designed and inspired by digital fashion, basically getting a digital product, and then putting it into the real world. So now we have a bit of a more fashion forward approach, we experimenting much more with what eyewear can be. So with that sense, we hope to also cater more towards a fashion, fashionable audience. And at the same time, of course, we are committed to inclusivity and equality. So all our frames, again, may come in different nose profiles, in different sizes.

TS: 22:21

And so who are your main customers now?

SV: 22:24

So our main customers are, I think people that have issues finding correct fitting eyewear, still. The funny thing is that most of the frames are not sold to black people, but white men. And that's something Ackeem and I never expected. But let's say the customer profile looks like thirty-five year old guy, highly educated and living in the city.

TS: 22:54

So that's interesting that most of your customers are white men. Why do you think that is, is that because these are people that just haven't been able to find the right glasses for their for their face shape, or they just want something unique and custom made.

SV: 23:08

I think that's definitely because they've been struggling for a long time to find correct fitting eyewear. But we see also that some people, especially the black customer is happy that we exist. So they decide, even if they don't have issues with finding correct fitting eyewear, they decide to purchase from us because they are happy that there is this inclusion, that this company is seeing them, don't try to hide them in our official marketing, official communication. You also see a lot of diverse people. And that's not just from the front, but also Ackeem and I can really walk the talk. So I think people liked the honesty that we share as a company because we are there for everyone.

TS: 23:56

So I understand you had some pushback initially, when you launched the company, and you said that you were targeting black people. Tell me about that and how that's informed the direction of the company.

SV: 24:08

That was interesting, because I remember we got some press, I think Design Week, wrote an article about us. And I remember we got some messages on Twitter, where people accused of us reverse racism. And I was surprised because I talked with Ackeem and we were discussing like if we should do one thing first very well until we until we scaling up. But there are also people that were saying I'm not black. I have a similar issue. What's up with your communication. So also that's why we decided to open up to more demographic groups much earlier than we actually planned. And we also notice that during the Kickstarter because when we did the Kickstarter, our tagline was eyewear for black people's nose profiles, but we changed that during the campaign because like I said before the audience on Kickstarter is not necessarily black. And that also resonates much better with more people. So we learned that it's really important to have this inclusive communication. But that was something we really didn't see coming.

TS: 25:20

Yeah, that's interesting. Do you think they had a point?

SV: 25:25

I think, of course, they do have a point. Because if you find a product that basically solving your problem, but this company, just kind of saying it, but it's not for you, I will also be not happy, I will also feel a bit frustrated. But from a company point of view, I think laser focus is also important. doing one thing very good. So it was a bit of a dilemma for us. But in the end, like I said, we decided to, to open up. And I think we've managed very well, because of that we created the app, and then it really didn't matter anymore how your face look like because we get this data and based on that we can produce a frame for you. And it also leads to the frame that comes in nine different variations.

TS: 26:11

Right, and how has that impacted the growth of the company.

SV: 26:15

So basically, you get a bigger market, which is good for a company, we could sell more frames to more people. So that's the that's always good. But of course, growth is also expensive, you need to keep up with the growth. So that's why like most frames are being sold to America. But I think from a company point of view, it's so important to maybe sell a bit less in order to have more control of the situation, to just accept everything. Because we also realize that during the Kickstarter campaign, we sold frames to over 30 countries in the world, from Australia, to Hawaii to a lot of in Europe. So we realized, it doesn't make sense for us to regularly sell frames to Australia, because it's just too expensive. So we realized that we should decide what our markets are and focus on that, if that works, we will scale up.

TS: 27:13

Right, I see. So as well as inclusion, I understand that sustainability is also a big focus, you have a rental program, I believe, why did you decide to roll that out?

SV: 27:25

Exactly. So the reason why we started with a rental program is that first of all, if you want to have custom frame from us, it's quite expensive. And also when you think about sustainability, so we produce frames on demand, which is already quite sustainable, we don't have any stock, but rental give people options to use a product. And whenever the moment is there, they're not interested or they don't need it anymore to send it back to us. Which also means that you don't have to throw it away. I have so many sunglasses that I just bought, because I liked them back in the days. And now they're just sitting here. And yeah, if you look at clothing, it's the same, like, I think ownership will change into usage more. And we should all buy less and use more. But I think it's a mindset that we globally have to adapt to still, because we keep on producing, keep on producing. And when you look at eyewear, most people don't buy a frame every year. So it's also a product that you can use much longer. And when you don't, we can take it back, we can recycle it, we can make new things out of it. So that's a very circular movement that we have especially also stand for as Reframd.

TS: 28:51

And I'm curious also about the b2b side of your business, because I understand that your aim is to develop industry standards that others can use. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

SV: 29:02

Yeah, so we have helped eyewear brands in the past, for example, it was a UK company that wanted to create a diverse sports frame. And they found us, I don't know how exactly, and we basically gave them our fitting insights. So what we did was we segmented our, our data that we got from the app and they explained to us who their customers are or the potential customers are. And based on that we created a data set so that they know exactly which or how to produce the eyewear and especially with which nose profile, which means for them in the future when they're selling eyewear, it's much more secure. So you know who you're designing for and who you're selling to which means that if things go right, you don't have to pay so much unsold stock.

TS: 29:56

Okay, so So the data you have allows you to say take a country and basically tell an eyewear brand, this is sort of the average nose profile.

SV: 30:07

Yeah. So for example, if there will be a Brazilian eyewear brand, uh, coming to us, um, we have a specific data set that we can share with them, which will be completely different than, uh, let's say a South African eyewear brand. So we want to help other eyewear brands to cater more locally to their customers as well.

TS: 30:29

So when you think about the future of the company, do you see the B2B side growing more, or do you think you'll focus more on the consumer side?

SV: 30:37

So I think it will be a bit of a mix because I think in order to really make the eyewear industry inclusive, the eyewear industry just doesn't need one brand that will do it. And, um, then again, I will mention our app because, um, we believe that with a scan you get Reframd eyewear at the moment, but what if you can use this scan to find correct fitting eyewear from different brands? Um, we think that this will have a massive, um, impact on the eyewear industry. And then we can also talk with brands about their demographic groups. Um, if you focus on North America, this is the most common nose profile. So in that sense, we can help eyewear brands to produce the right frames at the right time and also prevent them overproducing and throwing away millions of frames.

TS: 31:36

And so what incentive is there for the eyewear industry to change?

SV: 31:42

I think it's customer experience. Um, if you go to any big eyewear company and you're looking for eyewear, you will see a massive list of eyewear, sunglasses and eyeglasses. You need to scroll. But what if you can make this process much easier? What if the eyewear, that you don't have to look for the eyewear, but the company or the brand just shows you what fits your face. Um, I think that will be a massive improvement for a customer.

TS: 32:11

And for companies that would like to develop more inclusive products, what would your advice be?

SV: 32:18

I think we should not even start to look from a product point of view. Start from hiring, start from who is the founding team? Because many times, if you look at a startup, investors also invest in people that look like them. So basically you get a loop of the same things over and over again. But it's important to have diverse people. If you look at AI and self driving cars that they didn't see, or they have a hard time noticing black persons. That's just because of the fact that the biases of those people are incorporated in the software. Can you imagine that this will not happen if an AI company or a self driving car company with only Black employees, uh, that, that would not happen then. At the same time, it might happen that they would not notice white people. But what I mean to say is we need diversity in every layer of the organization, uh, in order to cater to the world.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai