Bridging the gap, part 1: crafting eyewear for diverse facial features, with Covry's Athina Wang and Florence Shin

AW 0:00

That's what we were so surprised about when we were starting this company is that you know, like clothing, there's so many sizes, shoes, everything like that you wear there's so many sizes, but eyewear, everyone is expected to wear one size, and one fit, which is so strange because our faces are the most diverse.

TS 0:20

Welcome to Made For Us, a podcast about the intersection of innovation and inclusion. It's for anyone who's curious about how to develop products that work better for all of us. I'm your host, Tosin Sulaiman, a podcaster and former business journalist. By Twenty Fifty, it's estimated that half the world's population will need glasses. But for people with diverse face shapes, finding a pair that fits comfortably can be a challenge. Today, in the first of a two part special on inclusive eyewear, I'll be speaking to Florence Shin and Athina Wang, the co founders of the eyewear brand Covry. We'll be discussing how they came into the eyewear industry as outsiders and decided to break away from the industry's practice of one size fits all. Plus how to tell if your glasses don't fit correctly.

Can you tell by looking at someone if they're wearing the wrong glasses?

AW 1:09

Yeah. Even when I'm like at home watching TV and stuff, I was like, they need Covry glasses.

TS 1:19

In part two of this series, I'll be speaking with Shariff Vreugd, co founder of Reframd, an eyewear startup based in Berlin. Look out for that episode tomorrow. Now, here's my interview with Florence and Athina.

AW 1:31

So I'm Athena and I do most of the design and production part of Covry.

FS 1:37

And I'm Florence, I do more of the marketing side of Covry. And we're both the founders. Just a little bit about Covry. We started Covry back in Twenty Fifteen, with the mission of creating inclusive eyewear for everyone. Both of us couldn't find eyewear that fit us properly, because we have diverse face shapes that weren't necessarily catered to in the industry. And so we wanted to create something that was more inclusive. And that's why we launched Covry.

TS 2:05

And you two have been friends since high school, I understand. But you came up with the idea for the company after you'd already started your careers in fashion. I'd love to hear more about that story.

AW 2:15

Yeah, so we both were we both went to school for fashion. So I studied design. And then Florence studied marketing and PR. And we were both working in New York, like a block away from each other in the fashion district. So we would meet up during work, like during lunch, to talk about, like, you know, ideas and like what we were working on and how our jobs are going. And that's kind of how we started to get it flowing. But we in high school, we were out of our group of friends, we were the only ones that went to fashion school. So we kind of had that kind of connection, even though we were on opposite coasts. So I went to school in California, and she went to school in New York.

TS 2:57

Okay, and how did you come up with the idea to start in the eyewear brand, what was the problem that you wanted to solve?

AW 3:03

Basically, during us like meeting up during, you know, our lunch hours and stuff, we were just like, not very happy with how our current jobs were going. So we one day we were at a climbing gym. So Florence's husband has been really into climbing and he invited us to go to the climbing gym. And unfortunately, we really were terrible at climbing. So we just like sat on the mat the whole time. And we were just like talking and I was like, you know, I've always had like an issue finding glasses. Like growing up in America, like my problem was always like I would walk into a store or walk outside and then my glasses would fog up because they're so close to my face. And then they would always sit on my cheeks, they would leave marks on my cheeks. Like every time I smile, the glasses would like slide up because they're sitting on my cheeks. And then always like pushing them up because they keep sliding down. So like I always struggled with glasses, not fitting my face.

And then I was just like, there's gotta be a better way to, you know, for this to fit our faces. And then I expressed this to Florence and she was like, oh, like I also have struggled with that growing up. I guess that was kind of the moment where we realized like, I'm not the only one. There are other people that also have this issue. So from there we're like let's try to see if we can you know change this and change the fit and make it more comfortable for us. So then we kind of like worked for over a year to develop samples and figure out, because I was in apparel that was kind of like my industry so I had never been in the eyewear industry and neither had Florence, so we kind of like started from scratch, like scratch scratch, we had to figure out how to get a business license and like every single step of the way, how to have a website domain and finding manufacturers and like every component of you know a frame coming together. So we did all that research. And then after a year, we finally finished our samples, and then we launched on Kickstarter. So that's kind of how we started.

FS 5:10

So I just want to add on to what Athina had just mentioned, because when she first just even brought up the idea that I wear, it doesn't fit her, that instantly resonated with me, because I felt that way my entire life. But I think I just never recognized that that was something that could be changed. Because every time I would go shopping for eyewear, like I've been wearing glasses since second grade. So it's something that I've just I think became accustomed to with eyewear not being comfortable and accepting the fact that they fit a certain way. And so for us, like, for me personally, like I have a lower nose bridge and higher cheekbones. So the frames just don't fit me in terms of like, they're always sliding down and hitting my cheeks, kind of like some of the same issues that Athina had. And what we realized while doing our research before starting Covry was that most eyewear in the industry is designed with a one size fits all approach. So there isn't like different fit considerations that are really thought of during the design process. So that was kind of a new thing. And because neither of us came from eyewear, I think that actually was valuable because it allowed us to think differently and think outside the box and, and have the idea to create a whole new fit.

TS 6:24

So when you conceived of the idea for the business, who did you think your target customers would be? Who were you aiming this at?

FS 6:30

We weren't really sure. Because like, we were kind of the first two people to think, oh, my gosh, wait, you have this problem, too. And, you know, we mentioned the idea to our friends and family, of course, who said it was a great idea, but we just weren't sure. And so that's why we launched our brand as on Kickstarter, for the very first time because we wanted to see if there was a market for something like this, and see who our community would be, then ultimately, it ended up being people that have diverse face shapes and can really resonate with the idea of not feeling seen by the industry, you know, for the past how many years.

TS 7:07

Right? And can you tell by looking at someone if they're wearing the wrong glasses?

AW 7:11

Yeah. Definitely. Even when I'm like at home watching TV and stuff, I was like, they need Covry glasses.

TS 7:23

What are the telltale signs?

AW 7:25

The biggest one is like if when your glasses are kind of sitting like this. So your eyes are like, basically here instead of like in the actual frame, because it's like sliding off your bridge. So that's the biggest thing. And also you can see when it's like digging into someone's cheese, so it shouldn't be like sitting and leaving, or you should not touch your cheeks at all, like you should be able to put your finger through. And also if people are you know if they're like on TV or something, and they're always like going like this, like touching their glasses. So yeah. pushing their glasses up.

TS 8:01

And a lot of the press coverage of Covry talks about how you're one of the first companies providing eyewear for Asian faces. And I know that it's it's more diverse than that. But is it true that standard glasses tend not to fit Asian face shapes? Or is that a bit of a generalization?

AW 8:21

it's a little bit of a generalization. But you know, the Asian population does tend to have a lower nose bridge and higher cheekbones. But again, it's not exclusive to, you know, a specific demographic, it's really for anybody that is looking for a little bit more of a comfortable fit and a little bit of lift in their frame. So what we found is that there's a lot of different use cases where there were people can't find glasses that fit them properly, whether they're too narrow, too wide, you know, maybe they have a smaller thin nose, maybe they have really long eyelashes, and the lashes are hitting their the lenses all the time. So from the beginning, we wanted to be very intentional about our fit. And that's why we call it elevated fit. We never wanted to exclude anyone from our product. But you know, of course, that is like a more comfortable fit is always our goal and our mission.

TS 9:14

And who did you share the idea with in the early days? What was their reaction?

FS 9:18

Early on? I mean, it was definitely friends family. And I think the initial reactions were always really good, but it gets it gets real when people actually try on the frame versus us just telling them about it. So like really, for us having these like in person physical experiences with people are probably the best way for us. It's like the best feedback that we can get. And it's the most rewarding because like I was saying earlier, like I was so used to the idea that frames are uncomfortable. So for us it was a challenge to kind of like educate customers on how frames should fit and kind of break down that original idea that people are so used to that they're not comfortable. So when people try on our frames for the first time, there's this like really magical moment that happens, where they're like, oh my gosh, like, I didn't know that they could feel so comfortable on people forget sometimes that like they even have it on. Sometimes they're so used to pushing their glasses up. Because they've been doing that for years that even though they don't need to do that, with our frames, they still do that. And we got like, the funniest messages from our customers about that. So for us, that's like always our favorite thing to kind of be part of that journey for people where they can feel seen and feel really empowered and confident in a pair of frames.

TS: 10:37

So yes, I saw on TikTk, you have a number of customers that are raving about your brand and saying that the brand has changed their lives. I'm curious, why do you think it's such a game changer for people,

AW: 10:48

I think just feeling like you're being seen is such a, such a, you know, like, amazing feeling, especially when you've spent your whole life feeling like you kind of just had to deal with whatever was there and just kind of like, I don't want to say suffer, but like you have, you kind of have to just, you know, deal with what you have, instead of having an actual company be like, No, it's not your face, that's the issue, it's these frames, and we need to change the frames to better fit you, you don't need to change anything about your face, there's nothing wrong with your face, you know, like everyone has, that's what we were so surprised about when we're starting this company is that, you know, like clothing, there's so many sizes, shoes, everything like that you wear there's so many sizes, but eyewear everyone is expected to wear one size and one fit, which is so strange, because our faces are the most diverse, you know, everybody has such different parts of their faces. So I think it's, it was for us, it was, you know, like being seen, I think is the biggest one, we've had customers who I remember this one customer, I think she was in her 50s. And she was like I tried on your glasses with our home try-on program. And she's like every frame fit. And I've never felt that before. And the for the first time I feel seen, and things like that messages like that, that we get. It's just so it impacts us so much, because that's how we that's why we started the company. And that's our mission. That's what continues to be our mission. And our goal. And our number one focus is always to make sure that people feel comfortable. And people feel confident when they're wearing their glasses. Especially because it's something that you wear every single day, or it's something that's such a big part of your face. And it's a huge, like confidence booster, if you feel like your frames fit you and if you feel like beautiful and seen and then instead of always kind of like, oh, I have to wear contacts, because you know, my glasses are uncomfortable and you know, things like that we just wanted to make everyone feel confident in in their eyewear choices.

TS: 12:56

So when we look at the business side of things, what was your hypothesis on the size of the opportunity?

FS: 13:02

I think for us, we knew that the market was there. Because, you know, after speaking with our friends and family, and they were always like, Oh, well, I have to tell my friends and family about this. But I think outsiders kind of saw it as a very small market like, Oh, it's too small, the opportunity is not there. So that's kind of what we heard, often, especially in the beginning, but we kind of just pushed through. And honestly, our community has grown, mostly because of organic, a lot of it in the beginning was word of mouth or referrals. Because as I was saying earlier, like when somebody actually tries on our frames for the first time, there's this like, it's a really magical pivotal moment. And when you experience something like that, you want to share it with friends and family. So we've been incredibly lucky to have a community that loves to share our product and our brand with our loved ones as well.

TS: 13:52

Why did you decide to go down the crowdfunding route with Kickstarter?

FS: 13:56

Yeah, that's a really good question. From the beginning, we wanted to start with Kickstarter. Because one we wanted to, obviously raise funds. So this was a brand new business, our first business, so we needed to raise funds for our production order, because with eyewear, the minimums are very high. So we needed some funds to get started. But more importantly, it was for us to see like to test if there was a market for this. And I think we're both extremely happy that we started this way because we were able to start with a really good community and like loyal brand ambassadors because of that.

TS: 14:34

And can you say more about how that Kickstarter campaign went?

FS: 14:37

Yeah. So we were raising, I think it was like eighteen thousand five hundred. And we ended up closing the project with almost 300% of our initial fundraising goal.

TS: 14:48

That's amazing. And what would you put that success down to?

FS: 14:52

I think that we had prepared, we probably spent a year just getting that project ready. So you know, we did put in a lot of work, we did a lot of research, we prepare the best that we could we had researched like all other successful Kickstarter campaigns and kind of tried to see what was working for them. We analyze all of their videos to see what was working, what wasn't, we looked at unsuccessful projects to see why those didn't succeed. So we did a lot of research to, you know, help ensure that our campaign would be successful. But I still remember even though it was like eight years ago, the day that we had launched like, we both were like, Okay, are you really doing this, and it was a really, it was nerve wracking, but it was really exciting to kind of hit that green Launch button.

AW: 15:40

We also had a lot of press, which also helped get a lot of traction to the actual campaign. So I think we had quite a few articles that were written about, you know, the whole project and the whole Kickstarter. So that really helped to get a lot of traction.

TS: 15:57

And you said that neither of you had worked in the eyewear industry before. So I understand it was quite a steep learning curve for you. What are some of the elements that go into designing and making eyewear that a lot of people might not realize?

AW: 16:11

Well, for our eyewear, everything is handmade. So that means that there's over twenty steps, it takes about four months for one frame to be finished. So the whole production run, it's a lot of it's very labor intensive. And so the whole process, there's the other reason why a lot of people ask, like where do you manufacture so we manufacture in China. And the reason why is because there's so many different components to eyewear. So like the the hinge piece is made by a completely different factory, and they only make hinges, the lenses are only made by lenses, the material like the plastic and the acetate only made by an acetate supplier. So every all of these components have to come together to make one frame. And then there are people who only put everything together. So all of that there's like these huge areas or regions in China that are all just for like eyewear or you know, things like that different industries. So there is a lot that goes into each frame. And basically you kind of start with the acetate block, which is made of cellulose acetate, and it's like a plant based material. And they kind of knead it like a dough.

So if you have like a pattern like a tortoise pattern or something, they need different colors and and that's why no frame is exactly the same. Because it's like a mixing process. So it depends, like you might have a little bit more pink in this line, you might have a little bit more white and the other one, so it's all mixed together. And then they cut it out with the machine, they laser the outside of it. And then you have to polish and then you cut the lenses, you put the lenses in all the temples, all the decoration, if there's anything on the temples, if you have any logos, anything like that is all done by hand. And then you have to dry it, and then you tumble it in the big dryer for like a very long time. So it says so the whole process just takes a really long time and coming from apparel, it's pretty fast too. So like a T shirt or something, it's generally pretty fast unless you're making like a gown or something like that. So I was pretty surprised by how long it took and how labor intensive it took. Because if you're making a garment, you can do just one person who make the entire garment but eyewear it's like you need so many artisans to do every piece of it. Sampling also takes a long time. Whereas clothing if you you know you have a fit model, you try it on you make adjustments, you can go right to your sewing machine, fix it and then have her try it on again and you get the sample done. But sampling for eyewear, you have to start that whole process again, every time you need to make changes.

TS: 18:50

Oh, wow. And because you were doing something a little bit different. You weren't making one size fit all glasses. Did that complicate things?

AW: 18:58

Yes. Because every time I would send them my edits and my drawings, they would always say that's not done in the industry. Are you sure that's how you want it? Is that a mistake? Like do you mean this instead? And I would always be like, No, don't please don't change it. Please don't you know, go to the default that you guys do, because that's exactly not what we want. You know, like we, we want that exact measurement. So please stick to that. So it was definitely I think, surprising for our manufacturers as well too. Because they they always say like, oh, no one ever asked for that or like our other customers don't ask for that.

TS: 19:38

And I'm curious, what were some of the challenges that you faced throughout the process? Other than you know, having to go back to the drawing board once in a while. And what would you do differently? Looking back?

AW: 19:48

I would say the challenges are I mean, especially with COVID I think everyone felt the impacts of it in terms of you know, like delays so shipment delays, production delays. Especially it being in China, they had a huge, like, industry wide shut down for months. I mean, that's not nothing that we could do differently. It just is what it is. And it happened and impacted everyone. But I would say definitely finding a good partner, I think that we kind of struggled with, we switched manufacturing partners a few times. And now we're finally, you know, really happy with our current manufacturer. And I think it's hard because you develop a relationship and you basically everyone always says, yes, if you ask them to do something, they're like, Yes, I can do it. And then three, four months later, four or five months down the road, when you get your production, you're like, that's not what we agreed to, or like, that's not the location I wanted the logo and things like that, but it's already made. So I would say definitely find a good partner is the key, like you can't ask for anything else, just find a good partner, someone who can really be like, on top of every detail, because there are so many components that go into it. So they really have to be on top of it. And just really understand, like, you know, the things that we're looking for, and our quality and our standards. And so I guess to answer your question, yes to go, if we could go back in time, I would probably cut off some relationships a little bit sooner, or try to find new relationships a little bit faster, to avoid, you know, delays and issues in production. But I think we all learned a lot from that experience. And now, you know, we're really happy with who we're working with.

TS: 21:38

And could you talk through your design process? Where do you get your inspiration? How do you incorporate customer feedback?

AW: 21:44

So basically, our inspiration is our customers. I know a lot of people always say like, you know, I was inspired by X, Y and Z. But honestly, like, our customers are our inspiration. We're pretty active on our social and then we'll have customers ask us, can you do more cateye styles, can you do wider frames? Can you do like mirrored lenses, all the comments like that. So we really take note of everything. And it's pretty amazing how much feedback our customers give us. Like me, personally, I never review anything, I just, if I buy it, I like it, and I'll buy it again, if I didn't like it, I just don't buy it again. But our customers really take the time to send us feedback. They'll write us like paragraphs of, you know, what they thought and what, you know, suggestions that they have. And it's also important and so meaningful that they take the time to do that for us. Because at the end of the day, we're trying to make something for them, you know, we want to make products that they love. And if there's, you know, if somebody says I want a purple frame, then you know, we'll work on that, we'll make that happen. So honestly, our, our inspiration is always our customers. And we just keep trying to like communicate as much with them and get as much of their fees feedback as possible and just do whatever we can to make the experience good for them.

FS: 23:10

I think just to add to the customer feedback, so we recently opened our first store, it's a physical, like our first physical space, it's in Costa Mesa, California. And so this has kind of provided a new opportunity for us to get even more customer feedback that's really direct. And you know, whether it's like through actually engaging with the customers and hearing from them, like, what they like what they don't like, I think there's also feedback that we got from like, just observing how they shop and observing like their actions and how they interact with the product. So that has been really valuable for us as well as we design new new collections.

TS: 23:47

Right. So because you started selling online, and this new store is actually quite recent, isn't it?

FS: 23:53

Yes. Yeah. So we've been online only since Twenty Fifteen. And then we just launched this shop this summer.

TS: 23:59

Wow, congratulations. And I saw on one of your channels, it's the first store that sells eyewear for people with low nose bridges,

FS: 24:08

we think so. I mean, because our product is exclusively, you know, we have all of our products are made with our elevated fit. And so it's a place where someone can come. And the goal is to have every single pair fit them and it's really just up to them in terms of what style preference that they have.

TS: 24:27

So talk a bit more about the elevated fit. What do you mean by that? Can you describe how that's a departure from what's happened before? Yeah,

FS: 24:35

so our elevated fit is comprised of three different design elements. So the first thing that we did was that we made the nose pads longer. And this is just to help the frame sit higher on the face and away from the cheeks so it prevents the frame from like really resting on the cheek, which was one of the main issues that we had. The second thing that we did was we reduced the curvature of the frame. So from the side like a lot of times when you look at Ray Bans, the frame is digging in to the cheeks. And so that's why they're very uncomfortable. So we just reduced the curvature. So it's sitting more parallel with your face, and you have more space between your cheeks and the frames. And then we narrowed the nose bridge. So it's just sitting more securely on your nose. And it's, you know, less of you having to push your frames up every 10 seconds.

TS: 25:20

And would you say your growth has been consistent since you started? Like, what kind of growth rates are you seeing?

AW: 25:25

During the pandemic, it did help that we were already online. So we already had all of our operation setup. And the fact that we did home trials, I think we're great for people to feel safe to be able to try on frames in their home without having to leave and we sanitize and clean everything every time we shipped out to a customer. So it was a very safe and easy, very effortless journey for them to try on frames. So I think just overall, we've been seeing a lot more awareness for, you know, diversity, inclusivity and inclusive eyewear. And I think people are more being more vocal about what they want versus settling for what is just out there. So I think right now, it has been like a really great time for us.

TS: 26:18

And looking at the eyewear industry as a whole. Would you say much has changed when it comes to inclusion? Since you started covering? What have you noticed?

AW: 26:26

I think since we started back in Twenty Fifteen, like eight years ago, I think a lot has changed any years. And I don't think that representation was really top of mind for especially the industry back then. There are like a big few like power players in the industry. And I think they mainly control most of the, the sizing and the narrative. So I think recent years, you know, there are, even not in eyewear, but just in any across any industry, I think there's been a lot of like, there's a lot of room for companies, new companies to kind of speak out and be like, I know, traditionally has always been done like this. But now we feel like it could be better done this other way. So I think that process has especially DTC companies, within the last few years it there's been a big push of innovation and kind of stepping out of like, the standard box that we've all been accustomed to. And everyone I think, has been trying to find new ways or better ways to do something, being more eco conscious being more, you know, just speaking out about like, industry issues that have always been prevalent, but kind of people just deal with it, because that's how it's always been done. And I think this generation, especially has been the most vocal about, just because it's always been done this way doesn't mean that's the right way. So I definitely think like not even just eyewear industry. But I think across all industries, there's been a big shift in that.

TS: 27:58

And are there any changes that you would still like to see?

AW: 28:01

Yeah, I think I would love to see, like more women in business, more women in manufacturing, like there's not really many women at the top of manufacturing, or production. I would, I think just overall, like more representation in every aspect, I think more women leaders would be amazing. I think all of these, especially when it come when it comes to like, the eye care system. So like optometry related issues, it's a very, like, male dominated field. So I mean, for us, like, it's this is, you know, it's eyewear, but it's also like a fashion accessory. So you have more women in here, because it's fashion, its design, you know, you can play around with that. But I think like the big industry issues with like, eyecare and eye health, a lot of that is very male dominated. So that would be great to see more women in there as well.

TS: 28:58

If a brand approached you and said they'd like to work with you to develop more inclusive products, what would you say to them?

FS: 29:05

We'd say let's do it. I think it it depends. I think it just comes down to what their intention is, you know, like, is it authentic? And is it genuine? Or is it just a marketing play? Because for us, I think like our communities know when something is not genuine, and I think other brands can probably other brands know that too with their communities. So I think even when big brands try to be more inclusive, I think that's a really, really great step, but just trying to make it like really authentic and part of their brand ethos.

TS: 29:37

And what can we expect from Covry in the future?

FS: 29:40

I think for us, it's just more products. We're always working on new collections, and then some new collaborations that we have coming up and just continuing to build our community especially now with our new shop. It's a really, it's a really big milestone for us being that we've been digitally native so really excited. about that and to just welcome everyone into our shop.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai