'Plus size' men's clothing: fashion's best kept secret, with Charlotte Griffiths of BRIDGE Agency - Episode 7

CG 0:00

It felt like something clicked, it felt like something had fit into place and we'd gone, gosh, like, why hasn't this been done before? Why haven't we talked about men in this space?

TS 0:12

Welcome to Made For Us, a podcast about the intersection of innovation and inclusion. It's for anyone who's curious about how to develop products that work better for all of us. I'm your host, Tosin Sulaiman, a podcaster and former business journalist. This week I'll be speaking to Charlotte Griffiths, Managing Director of Bridge, a talent management agency representing models and influencers. The ethos of the agency is to bridge the gap between standard and plus size models. In twenty sixteen, Bridge launched the UK's first plus size men's division for bigger, broader male models after seeing a gap in the market and a rise in mental health struggles for men. In this episode, we talk about Charlotte's experience in the fashion industry and why she felt there was a need to bring men into the conversation and acknowledge their struggles with body confidence and representation in the media. Here's Charlotte Griffiths.

CG 1:00

So I'm Charlotte. I'm from Bridge Agency, we have offices in London in New York. And we represent models and influencers in the sort of diverse and inclusive space. So we really try and focus on bridging the gap between any areas that we feel sort of underrepresented. So when we originally launched, it was with a women's board and sort of focusing on the plus size market and trying to sort of bridge the gap there. And then sort of the time has passed. And we've come across some new areas that we sort of recognized need representation, we develop and grow the boards, you know, consequentially to reflect that. So we launched the first UK men's plus size board in twenty sixteen. As a result of that, in particular, the area that we kind of focus on is representation and how we go about pushing our talent to brands that have maybe not considered, you know, including people of different shapes and sizes or heritages before. It's very sort of unique in that way.

TS 2:01

Thank you for that. So yeah, I'd love to dig into that a little bit more. But first, I'm curious to know a bit about your story. And what happened before Bridge, what was your experience with fashion and modeling,

CG 2:12

I had the briefest and I'm always embarrassed to say it, but I do think it's, it's, you know, wouldn't be me telling a true story if I didn't mention it. But I had the briefest kind of doing a tiny bit of runway when I was when I was 17. And my body changed a lot from the age of sort of 17 to 21, I got curvier and I had this, I remember had this one situation where I was about to do a show. And the skirt, the sample skirt that I had already been fitted for which fitted me fine, they changed where the zip was going to be positioned, it was meant to go up the side and then it went up the back. And this one positioning, this change of the zip meant the skirt, it couldn't go up. And that had a very intricate design on the front. So it's not that you kind of twist it round. And long story short, I didn't fit the clothes. And I got so affected and was sort of there was an email that went out that cc'd everybody who was part of the show being like you can't change size and blah, blah, blah. And it was obviously targeted at me. And I remember just having that experience and it really shaking me. But I loved the industry so much. And I'd loved the creativity behind it.

So my natural transition was to work behind the scenes and work with the modeling agencies and work there, I'd spent some time working on what they call the straight size markets, which is where you work with sample size models who you know, the stereotypical sort of model agency that you think of, and found that this also wasn't a good space for me mentally, I was sort of working in these areas where we'd bring models in and we'd weigh them or we'd measure them to double check, everything was up to date and correct. And it again was having an effect on me, on my sort of mental health, how I was sitting there and perceiving myself and it just was one that I didn't really resonate with, in a positive way. I then heard of a company that came over from Australia called Hughes Models that was run by Cheryl Hughes. And Australia was kind of one of the first markets to champion plus size modeling for the women in particular. And she'd brought this concept of this agency over to London, and was looking to sort of expand her teams. I met with her and loved everything that she sort of stood for and loved the concept of the whole agency. It was still boutique. It wasn't a revolving door of talent, which a lot of agencies can be very much you're in and if you're not booking enough you're out it was more about building relationships, which I found more satisfying in that role. And it was one that yeah, I really really loved her her sort of view and outlook on it.

And when she came to sort of retiring and and sort of hanging up her hat so to speak is when Bridge became a concept that I really wanted to continue. It was one where, you know, I'd sat with with my business partner at the time and we'd reviewed and gone well, what do we want to do and it's we wanted to continue bridging that gap and not just waiting for that gap to become apparent, we wanted to kind of challenge it. And that's something I think that you can do with a new company, because you haven't got the expectations there, I think you can take more risks when you start something new. I think when you become more established and more time passes, I think it can become more nerve wracking for any sort of company founder. But I think we were at a time where we could take those risks and sort of make our mark, because there was no expectation it was still such a new market. So I found that really freeing at the time.

TS 5:46

And I'm curious, how did you scout for models at the beginning? How easy was it to find talent?

CG 5:54

Gosh, yeah, it's it is it's a hard one, because you're approaching people, and even now you're approaching people who maybe don't view themselves that way, you know, so you're, you're approaching people of different shapes and sizes, people who still don't necessarily see themselves being represented, and you're asking them to trust you. And it can happen in a sort of 30 second conversation as you spot somebody in the street, or, you know, I constantly frustrate friends or family when I'm on holiday, because my eyes, I can't switch them off. So I'm always that person running around with cards, sort of approaching people. So it is it is very difficult to try and find people because it like I said, it's not only about finding the right people, it's allowing them to feel confident and trust you and being put forward because you can scout somebody, you can have a conversation. But they're still the ones that are very vulnerable. They're still the ones that are saying, Okay, I'm gonna put my name and face out there. And I might get rejected a million and one times. And that, like I said, it's that level of trust when you're scouting, that they've got to having you as an agency.

TS 7:05

And what about the first model you signed? I mean, I'm curious, what is it that you're looking for? When you spot someone like how do you know that there'll be a great model?

CG 7:15

No, it is, it's very difficult, because it is an industry that's constantly evolving. And for us, what's quite important is still being sort of a small agency allows us to kind of converse with clients a lot more regularly. And ask them, what is it that they're looking for, but a lot of the time, it's having a look, and you can find somebody who's got an amazing, amazing look, it's not just all that it's cracked up to be. You also do need somebody that's got a strong work ethic, and who mentally is in a space where they want to take on that challenge. You know, because it is, like I said, you're asking a lot of somebody to put themselves forward. So you can scout somebody who, you know, photographs, amazingly, who's got great confidence in front of the camera, but who could be, you know, very triggered by a rejection. And in which case, we don't feel like it's appropriate, ethically, as a company to continue to push people forward in those spaces.

TS 8:12

And so you mentioned that you launched the men's division in twenty sixteen. What was the inspiration for for launching the men's division?

CG 8:20

We spent a good couple of years establishing ourselves in sort of the women's space in the plus size market. We've done a couple of big campaigns with Fashion Targets Breast Cancer. And we're really sort of building momentum. And we were talking about what a diverse media scape looked like to us. And we realized we really weren't bringing in a lot of equal representation when sort of talking about that. One of the main areas that we sort of looked at in particular was okay, if we're talking about diversity with men, let's have that conversation with them. What do they think that looks like?

And I'll be honest, a lot of the inspiration came from my partner at the time, he's come from a family of sporting athletes, his body and figure even though he's very physically fit, doesn't have that stereotypical athletic look. So he'd always sort of struggled a little bit with feeling confident in his body, which I always found really fascinating because he can run a marathon he can, you know, he's very physically fit, but he was always sort of struggling with feeling confident, because he didn't necessarily look like his brothers. So really, it came from different conversations with men in my life and hearing that they also felt this way and us sort of going, Okay, well, if we're going to be a diverse agency, let's try and find models that we can put out there and show that men want to be part of the conversation as well.

TS 9:43

And I remember reading as well that your your partner had done some research like he I don't know if it's an academic thesis. Can you talk a bit about that.

CG 9:51

Of course. Yeah. So he went to London University. He did a Master's in Fine Art and his main outlook when he was researching it was the looking a lot at the male body type and the pressures sort of over the last 30 to 40 years, and you could really see a huge change and a shift from sort of the millennium era where like the first sort of superhero films came out where you saw, I think X Men came out with Wolverine in the Millennium, in the two thousands. And you saw a shift in, you know, these more extreme versions of male body types and you know, Men's Fitness covers and, and it sort of came, you know, perfectly in line with this superhero franchise that just kept churning and churning out more and more imagery. And, and, you know, you look back over the cartoons and the comic books, and you sort of see this impact. And it was really just kind of there for the shock factor, but it became something that people wanted to, to obtain. So it was really interesting when sort of looking at his thesis and his final dissertation and art show, because it was one where you saw the direct correlation to what you saw in the media, into the rise in men's mental health issues, into the rise in body dysmorphia and the sort of pressures and you saw it sort of trickled through into into that whole period over the last 20 years really.

TS: 11:12

Yeah. And it's interesting, because it's almost as if our perception of size has been distorted. I think a lot of the people that the fashion industry would class as plus size, most people would say, these are average size people.

CG: 11:27

Yeah. And I think that's another reason why I really sort of I'm not the biggest fan of vocabulary. I mean, I understand it, we live in a in a world where we need keywords and terms that we can search for, because that's how we consume stuff. Now, that's how we, you know, we're on our phones, and we're looking for clothes and fashion online. So I understand that there has to be an element of searchability. But I think the minute you start having a word, we like sort of pigeon holing and putting everybody into one into one bracket, you're either one or the other. And I feel like as a, as a community, we don't really like to see the in between, we struggle, we're like, well, which one are you? But I think plus size is is, you know, gives that connotation that it's, you know, plus, plus, plus, plus plus, like it's additional, it's additional to what the original number should be if you're if you're doing a plus. And I think that's where it can be, you know, a little bit a little bit tricky in that market.

But yeah, the average, the average woman in the UK is a size sixteen. When you're looking at sort of sample sizes, when you go to sort of any of the fashion universities in London in particular, and you have those conversations, they're learning to pattern cut with sample sizes only, you know, if one of the one of the students wants to learn how to design clothes for people of different shapes and sizes, they have to teach themselves that on their own, on their own time, which I think it's really interesting that a lot of the emerging designers coming out are only learning to cut, and to produce shows, you know, with sample sizes. When we work with any of the designers that are sort of going above and beyond to try and show different sizes, they're they're really doing it on their own initiative.

TS: 13:07

So when you decided to launch the the men's division, I believe you were the first in the UK to do anything like this. How did it feel to be doing something that hadn't been done before?

CG: 13:16

It was really nerve wracking, but it was something we felt so excited about. It felt like something clicked, it felt like something had fit into place, and we've gone gosh, like, why hasn't this been done before? Why haven't we talked about men in this space? What you know, what's been missing, there was a confidence there that we knew what we were talking about mattered. But I think the main nervousness was that we were still such a small company, we were a team of two at the time. And to launch, you know, a whole new division and be the first of anything in the UK came with a lot of responsibility to do it right. And to make sure you know, and we were two women as well, two women launching and talking about men's mental health and talking about this space.

So yeah, a lot of weight on our shoulders to do it. But I think that's where we had the time to really try and find a variety of men to sort of launch the board with you know, we launched with Ben Whit, who was a personal trainer. His message was so strong that, you know, again, he was somebody who is very physically fit, but you know, didn't see himself be recognized in any of the magazines or clothing stores, found that he had to constantly buy clothes online, because the regular high street wasn't providing tops that were long enough for him or broad enough, you know, and it was just, yeah, so much came from it. But I think the the nerves got outweighed by the feeling of it just felt so, so right and just clicked into place.

TS: 14:46

And I was just curious. So who were the models that you were representing? Who were they competing against? I mean, can you paint a picture of what the industry was like for male models at that time? Like, who were the big models? What did they look like?

CG: 15:00

No exactly, I mean, you know, when you sort of think especially about the UK market, if you try and think about well recognized names, you're thinking more of like, you know, the Dolce & Gabbana adverts or David Gandy, or you're thinking about, you know, that kind of, you've either got the sort of Men's Health physique, or you've got the editorial style runway look for men, which is quite slim. And you know, very heavy on the on the jaw line and stuff. So we were sort of competing against those two markets.

And what we were kind of finding is that, where these guys launched, so we had, we had Ben Whit who's a personal trainer, we have Brett Moss, who was an ex Olympian, he did discus in the twenty twelve Olympics in London, you know, you had these men with different backgrounds and stories, and I loved that they also all came from, you know, a sporting background, because, as we talked about earlier, it's you know, it's not like we're trying to promote an unhealthy lifestyle, it's not like we're trying to promote one extreme or another, which the media would have loved to have hopped on. And just that though, for us, it was about saying, Look, you don't even recognize that these models are struggling themselves to find clothes that fit right in to see themselves be represented, but you know, they're healthy. And they are a consumer, you know, this is they do require clothes, they do require shopping and, and they want to find a space that they feel comfortable doing so. So really, the space at the time was being very compared to, like I said, the David Gandys and the more sort of editorial looking figures that you've kind of sort of recognize in that space. And then we sort of said, Have you thought about expanding?

TS: 16:41

And what was the reaction in the early days?

CG: 16:44

In the early days, you did get some press and some clients that sort of thought that we were promoting an unhealthy lifestyle, where you kind of just the, the headlines, or click baits or notes and plus size men, and we don't need a rise in this, etc. And men aren't body conscious or anything along those lines. So we did get some of that feedback. But overall, it was really positive. It was a space that was sort of welcomed. It was one where it was highly supported by by clients we had within the year. We had ASOS and boohoo launching the men's boards for their industry and their their market, which felt perfect, because you know, it's those fast fashion brands that can cater unfortunately, the quickest to demand. You know, when we launched New York in twenty nineteen, that was because the demand was coming to heavily across, you know, from the pond and asking quite a lot for the male models, because they were finding that their brands and their average consumer as well as not being sort of represented.

So we sort of see it trickled through into quite a lot of different brands, because the clothes were out there, they just weren't being photographed on men in those sizes. We weren't needing a whole shake up of design, it wasn't that these men were walking around in ill fitting clothing they had that the brands were doing them, they just weren't shouting about them or showing them in in strong visuals. You know, it was more a case of reaching out to the people that were stocking the clothes that our guys were wearing on an average day to day basis and saying that they look really good in them. And they are they are your consumer. So it wasn't it wasn't too hard to find the brands it was more about where could they see it fitting into their marketing strategy. And I think once you see, unfortunately, once you see the fast fashion brands pick it up. And there's a huge increase in demand, then, you know, other brands can can take part, but you understand it's a risk assessment at the end of the day.

TS: 18:43

So that's interesting that they had the clothes but they just weren't matching that with the actual images. Why do you think that is? Is it just they didn't want to be the first movers? Or what was the reason?

CG: 18:55

I think people get nervous, you sort of follow marketing 101. And I think people presume that an aspirational aesthetic for a brand is therefore showing what they consider to be an attainable imagery. So if you're kind of showcasing Okay, well, this is somebody who looks, you know, incredibly visually, you know, symmetrical, or they might have a symmetrical physique. And it's perfectly toned. And in all these areas, and you know, brands are aware, that's not necessarily attainable for the average consumer, because sometimes it requires a full time job maintaining a body to that shape and size. There's that psychology behind it, that if you're putting your product on an unattainable version, that it becomes more aspirational because we are visually drawn to that imagery. And so I think it's a very old fashioned marketing strategy. It works. You know, we're all prone to it. I'm not saying it doesn't have its value and its merit because it's obviously based on psychology and we clearly show that If we're attracted to that imagery, and we're clicking on it, and we're gravitating towards that there's there's a reason why we resonate with it. But I think what was really interesting about that movement in that year in particular, was that there were a lot of brands that guys weren't aware were stocking clothes and their size.

We were getting a lot of feedback from our models and clients that we're working with that the increase in their revenue came because if guys weren't seeing themselves represented, and they found a brand that you know, stopped clothes that fit well, they would just order that T shirt in five different colors. And just because they just didn't want to deal with the fuss of it. And you know, they were like, Okay, well, I've found a company that does it, I will just keep buying that because I cannot be bothered to that through the internet, you know, to try and find, you know, other versions. So when other brands started to showcase, oh, by the way, we do XXL as well. It just became visually, you know, more appealing, and they're like, oh, okay, I can go and have a look at different providers. And I didn't realize they did. They did my side where they did it all along. It just wasn't it wasn't marketed to that consumer, which is crazy when you look at the average average size of everyone in the UK.

TS: 21:12

And the other question that I had was, you know, if you look at the women's market size inclusivity is really taken off. Are we there yet? With with men's fashion? Like, are there enough brands that are offering larger sizes for men?

CG: 21:26

I don't, we're not 100% there yet, I think some of the areas that the men's industry, even in the last six months, I've seen a huge increase then is showcasing more swim and underwear with different body shapes and sizes. For men. I think that's a market that still needs a lot of growth, but it's definitely moving there. So I think there's still some areas that that brands is sort of sticking to the old, the old sort of staples as to how to market but there's definitely been a big increase. I mean, we're working with some, you know, amazing brands like Calvin Klein and Tommy Hilfiger, who was showcasing beautiful imagery on men of different shapes and sizes we had, Raul Samuel for Men's Health, which was just some stunning, that was a big career highlight for me to see him do that. It was a publication that, you know, had been so much at the forefront of what we thought the change needed to be. So to see him, book that twice in the year was great. So the change is definitely happening. It's happening quicker than it did for women. Because that was that took about sort of 30 years to get to where we are now. So it's definitely happening quicker. But I think there's still the areas that I'd love to see sort of more visual content is swim, is underwear is you know, sort of showcasing men in those areas, in particular, sort of show the different body shapes and sizes.

TS: 22:46

And what about on the runway and Fashion Week?

CG: 22:50

Yeah, there's definitely you know, what I loved is that it's the new up and coming designers. So it's it's the London Fashion Week students who are the ones who are taking chances, and they're getting recognized, and they're the ones who are doing it. And I would love to see more of, you know, the mainstream brands, booking our guys and showcasing that on the runway. I understand logistically, the mechanics behind Fashion Week is, you know, some of the reasons that they they booked sample size models is because of the quick turnaround because they've got to order product that has to get made into one size, and it has to fit because they haven't got any other options. And so I can understand logistically how it's a bit more of a nightmare with Fashion Week, having a variety of different models and exercises, it can be done, it has been done. But those require a lot more prep months and months in advance. And you'll tend to see that the items that those models are wearing are part of the every, every collection, it's not necessarily, you know, the new ones that they're trying to get out really quickly. So logistically, I appreciate the struggle there. But you do see a lot of the London fashion students really putting the effort into showcasing that and that's what I really loved because they're the ones that are going to keep moving up and up and and they're going to have the impact when they get, you know, the rolls at these big companies or when they start their own collections.

TS: 24:18

And are there doubts about you know, men's willingness to spend on fashion? Do you think that plays into it as well.

CG: 24:26

So I think there was that sort of older concept that men don't want to invest in clothes and they don't invest in fashion. And I think that is I think that is really changing, I think yeah, I think the social space in particular in social media allows a lot more imagery for men to kind of see in the algorithm pulls through different fashion trends and you know, they can see themselves in this material and can experiment a lot more with fashion. So I think there was that initial concept that men don't buy clothes. And I think that's really shaken up, you know a lot for the last few years. I mean, for us, in particular, the business we're fifty fifty now with the women's and men's board in return of revenue, but for a good three years our men's board, even though it had a smaller pool of guys than the women was turning a higher revenue, so the demand was there, which was, which was really interesting. So yeah, I think I think it is definitely an old concept that that shifting.

TS: 25:25

So in terms of the brands that were the pioneers in this like, which are the brands that are really focusing on larger sizes, for men?

CG: 25:33

You've got brands like asos, and Boohoo were always able to cater those sizes, because financially, the size of the companies and being fast fashion brands meant that it wasn't too much of a risk, you know, they could order in bulk. And they could stock those sizes. So I appreciate where they had a huge part in changing the shift, because they were able to have a gamble a little bit more. And they were able to push it a little bit quicker to showcase that there was an opportunity for revenue there because it was less of a risk for them. I think, you know, some companies in particular, I mean, Savage Fenty, when we booked Steven Green, who was the first male model for their campaign, and he did an underwear shoot them that had such that went, you know, I hate throwing these terms around, but it did go viral.

And it had such a big impact where you saw not only women supporting his imagery, because they're saying like, yes, you know, we want to see guys that look like this, which I thought was so fascinating how many women commented and pushed and loved the content. It was it was probably I would say seventy percent women who were loving it and, and thirty percent men, and I thought that was really interesting to see. So Savage have done an amazing job with that, in particular, I think you've got brands like, you know, you don't want to just see them in fashion, you also want to see these men represented in the sort of lifestyle and the beauty market as well, because it isn't just clothing that you're going to see them in, you know, the product just like everybody else. And you know, they use skincare, and they gravitate in that space. So I think that's really great. I think Jack and Jones was such a big hitter in that space as well. They did some amazing sort of shoots and campaigns that had a big impact, which was great. They showcased a variety of sort of athleisure wear as well as sort of everyday wear.

TS: 27:25

And you mentioned that you launched in the US in twenty nineteen. I was just wondering to what extent you know, what the differences are between countries in terms of their appetite for models of all sizes? Because you mentioned that this sort of started in Australia, at least with women's fashion. What are your observations in terms of cultural differences and attitudes?

CG: 27:47

No, I think that's a really good question. Because I think we just presume there's a lot of similarities between the UK market and the US market, I'd say that the US market has actually embraced the men's space a lot quicker than the UK, I think they're very aware of their target audience. And you've got such a variety of brands that that cater to men over there. So I think there's just there's just a wealth of more of more clients, which is really exciting. So I'll tend to see not only a variety in the brands, but they're also interested in a variety of ages, where I think the UK is still focused on Okay, well, we'll show a representation of male models in different shapes and sizes. But we don't really want them looking over the age of 25 is still kind of a stigma that we're trying to, you know, so when you're talking about diverse representation, it isn't just about sizes, it's about showing people of different ages, backgrounds, heritages, the whole the whole shebang. And I think in the UK, we're still stuck a lot on younger's better in the promotion. Whereas in the US, I'd say where they're a lot more forward thinking is showcasing men of different ages, as well, which I think is really great. Because, you know, if you just focus on on the young market, you're knocking out a whole whole generation of consumers.

TS: 29:07

How do you define plus size on the men's side?

CG: 29:10

Yeah, so I think we sort of start with looking at men with like a forty two inch chest and above. So that's that's kind of our barometer. We're not there to try and tackle other markets that are already well represented. We're really there to sort of focus on our areas that that need time and attention because it is still so niche. We start with the forty two inch chest and then upwards from there is where we sort of evaluate. if we go below there, we're sort of trickling into into that other market. And there's other agencies that do those markets really well. We just want to stick to what we do well.

TS: 29:48

I know that you're always looking for new talent, you're getting a lot of applications, like how many applications are you getting? Sort of on a monthly basis?

CG: 29:57

It's been it's been close to the thousands a month so it is yeah, we are getting quite a lot quite a lot of applications. But having a look at our website and applying through the website is just the quickest way to get viewed and seen and, and I would sort of the best thing I would say is we're really approachable agency we don't sort of play the game of living up to to any drama or stigma in that way. So if you're considering it and you're nervous, just get in touch or or give us a call and have a chat with somebody we know the space is new. And we know that the industry is still growing. So we'd love to just have that conversation with anybody who's who's sort of toying with the idea and considering it, even if it's just a consultation or conversation. We're happy to have that.

TS: 30:42

Thank you to Charlotte Griffiths of Bridge Agency. If you'd like to learn more about Bridge you'll find all the details in the show notes. I'll also be speaking to one of Bridge's male models in a future episode so look out for that in the coming weeks. If you enjoyed this episode, why not share it with a friend or colleague. And don't forget to leave a review on Apple podcasts or Spotify. I'm Tosin Sulaiman. Thanks for joining me on Made For Us.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai