Crossover episode with Climify Podcast: Creating cradle-to-cradle clothing with Heike Petersen

TS: 00:00

Hi everyone and welcome back to Made For Us. Today I'll be bringing you something a bit different. I wanted to introduce you to the climate design podcast, Climify through a very special crossover episode. Climify has been one of my favourite podcast discoveries of the past year. And I think you'll love it too if you're curious about design and social impact. I'm guessing you are if you're listening to this show. Climify is hosted by Eric Benson and they'll be launching their fifth season later this month. The episode you're about to hear is from season four where the theme was ‘Change the System.’

In the interview, Eric speaks with Heike Petersen, founder of Wellicious, a circular yoga clothing and activewear brand. Heike has a really interesting story and I think you'll come away with a better understanding of the challenges of the fashion supply chain, greenwashing and the crucial shift we all need to make towards slow fashion.

TS: 00:56

If you'd like to check out the new season of Climify, you can subscribe to the show wherever you get your podcasts.

Made For Us will be back with a new episode next week. In the meantime, enjoy this episode of Climify with Eric Benson and Heike Petersen.

: 01:14

This podcast is a project of the Climate Designers Network.

This podcast was supported in part by grant funding from the U.S. Department of Education's Title IX grant program through the University of Illinois Center for Global Studies. The content of this program does not necessarily represent the policy of the U.S. Department of Education, and you should not assume endorsement by the federal government.

EB: 01:40

Hey, this is Eric. Welcome to season four of Climify, where this season we want to help change the system.

In this second series, we're going to be focusing on the commercial segment. Our experts in this area are focused on how our collective system is organized. We're not talking about decisions like which produce to pick at the grocery store, although these lifestyle choices are very important. Our four guests play pivotal roles in the organization of our society, disrupting the economy at the institutional level and changing how products are imagined and created.

The show format is a tad different this season. Each episode is broken into three segments. To begin, I'll be joined by one of our researchers on Climify to break down what we both heard in my interview with our guest and what you should listen for.

Our second segment is, of course, our interview, which is always still hopeful with plenty of inspiration. And finally, our third segment breaks down what we heard as calls for action in the interview itself and what you can do to change the system through climate action.

EB: 02:50

Well, I'm sitting here with Bhavna. Bhavna is one of our design researchers. She's back again, joining me today to talk about what she took away from this amazing conversation with Heike.

BB: 03:07

Well, I'm really glad to be here. And I mean, first off, I think it's really cool because Heike is the founder of Wellicious. And as a company, I think they're doing really cool things because they're clean, clean, clean, The clothes that they'd make are biodegradable. And is for yoga. And it's also extremely circular how they produce most of the work, like most of the products that they have.

EB: 03:32

Yeah. The company itself is trying to really fully embrace the idea of sustainability and they are running into obstacle after obstacle in this supply chain system that we set up to essentially harm ourselves and our planet. So it's a company that's, I think one that I would consider a trailblazer because they're considering everything. And that's rare. I think there's a lot of companies that are, okay, we focus on this one aspect, but not the rest of it. And Heike is saying that's not enough. And I really appreciate her company for that.

BB: 04:27

Yeah, I think, and also the products are really cool. I mean, mean, it's clothes. And I think it's interesting because the, there's a lot of emphasis that's been given to the production of it, the way it's being sourced, what the fabric turns out to be. It's hypoallergenic, think. And then it's also biodegradable. So I think all of these things put together is really cool because as I said earlier, it's cradle to cradle and that's amazing.

EB: 04:57

Yeah. Cradle to cradle was a term for me that I learned after reading the book Cradle to Cradle and that's Michael Braungart and William McDonough and totally changed the way that I thought about designing. And I've been looking for Cradle to Cradle products ever since I read that book. And I know they have a certification and we were talking before we sat down here to record and you mentioned to me that was one of the biggest things for people to listen to in this interview was learning about certifications.

BB: 05:39

Yeah, for sure. So I think it's really important to look into certification because you have it with different things. You have it with clothes, have it with your food products, you have it with most FMCG products, and you also have it with architecture and things like that. So I think there's a lot out there and there's a lot of value in knowing what's what. I think creative decadal specifically is something that's really encompassing what circularity is.

So like, that's something that people could really benefit from knowing. And also one more thing that I, I think the importance of trying to amalgamate your, like everywhere you go, the value systems of that place, like every, everybody's a product of values that they've picked up from different places, different circumstances. like, I think you've making sure they all kind of go together.

BB: 06:38

In her case, mean, that's kind of what she did, right? She picked up things from growing up in East Africa, I'm just going to say Africa, and her roots from Latin America, her roots from Germany. I think all over. Yeah. And she took all of that with her. And I think that really increases somebody's approach to a lot of things.

EB: 07:05

Yeah, the certifications I think are good reassurance to people that what they're spending their money on is not creating negative or too many negative, I guess, anything we do have some bit of negative impact. Yeah. But at least, know, they're, they're, they can feel more assured that what they're deciding to do politically with their money is, is better. And so I think listening to how she talks about the certifications in this episode is, very important. It's a teachable moment by Heike for us.

Were there anything else that you felt were things that you wanted our listeners to really pay attention to?

BB: 07:59

I think honestly, the emphasis that she's given to the entire supply chain for a fashion brand is really interesting. And I think as listeners, because most people are going to be able to understand what a fashion product is and how it's likely to be made. It's something that's in most people's everyday life. So maybe I feel the supply chain angle of it could be something that's a great learning opportunity for people.

EB: 08:32

And think we all know what supply chains are now after the pandemic because everything was stuck in some sort of supply chain mishap. Well, I really was moved by Heike’s story. She has a long journey all over the world and she has that international perspective on the products that she makes knowing people. So another key thing about such a great company. So without further ado, here's Heike.

Well, Heike, welcome to Climify. We're excited that you're on this season and we're really happy to have you here.

HP: 09:13

Thank you so much, Eric, for having me.

EB: 09:16

Yeah, it's an honor to be talking with you today. You’re doing some great work with your company and trying to change the system, which is the theme for this fourth season of Climify. And we're wondering, we ask every guest this first question, what does the system mean to you?

HP: 09:38

Well, I'm focusing on the fashion supply chain. And as you know, the fashion supply chain is the second largest polluter on the planet. yeah, it's a good thing to change the system, to make it enjoyable, to wear clothing, in my case, which is sustainable and just give people an option.

EB: 10:02

Yeah. Well, why did you choose fashion as your industry you chose to pursue?

BB: 10:12

I honestly, it was not about fashion. was more seeing a gap in the market. So when I was 27, I went to the first yoga studio in Germany and I loved it. And honestly, I can't even remember why I went there and I just thought, this feels good. I think this is going to be the next big thing. And I remember actually going or having dinner with my friends and telling them, my God, I just did this yoga class and I think it's going to be the next trend. And everyone was laughing about me and yeah, but you see it happened. This is why I chose the yoga market. thought I really could see that there's a gap in the market.

HP: 11:00

So were you doing yoga prior to that?

HP: 11:04

No, no, no, no, not at all. But I'm a very curious person. Very curious. I always love to try new things, to see new trends, to just experience, yeah, new things.

EE: 11:20

Well, speaking of experiences, you've lived all over the world and your journey, yeah, your journey towards sustainability has deeply personal origins. So I'm interested in your origin story. Will you share more about how your life growing up has affected your worldview and now your life path?

HP: 11:42

Yeah, I think I'm an interesting mix because first of all, my mom is from Peru. My dad is German. My dad has always lived abroad. For example, I was born in Germany, but then we moved to Haiti. I moved back to Germany when I was six because of school. And then when I was eight, my dad moved to Zambia and he had, he has lived in East Africa for 25 years. And my mom joined him when she was 11 and when I was 11. yeah, think Sambia at the time or Tanzania, East African countries were very rural. And so I was living two, two interesting worlds. So in Germany, was, I was a boarding school, so I was living the Western lifestyle. And in Africa, it was completely rural. My parents lived 800 kilometers from the capital.

HP: 12:40

So we had to grow our own vegetables, make our own bread, yogurt, whatever you needed in your daily life. had to do. My mom was teaching women how to sew. And yeah, it was very interesting.

EB: 13:01

Why did your dad move to Africa? What brought him?

HP: 13:04

He was always very interested as well. Like me, maybe he's very curious. He loves to experience different cultures, different experiences. And this experience has been very, very important to me because you live, I don't know if you have been to East Africa, but you really live with nature. You count butterflies, you go on safari, you live with the animals. So you really feel very close to nature and I guess from there already the essence was born that I like on the one side, I like the Western lifestyle and I'm a very modern woman, but deep inside I also value nature.

EB: 13:48

Yeah. I've not been to East Africa, been to Cape Town and Johannesburg in South Africa, but those are a little bit more cities than they are rural.

HP: 14:01

And yes, that's true.

EB: 14:03

Yeah. So not there. I've not been to where you grew up and I'm guessing, cause you mentioned gardening and then living in nature that that really has affected you and you are working in sustainability because of those experiences as a kid.

HP: 14:22

I think I learned from, from as a child that actually you don't need much in life. Yeah, you don't need much. mean, as you see me now, I'm a modern woman. also like to dress nicely, but I deep rooted in myself that is actually life can be very basic. You know what I mean?

Right.

EB: 14:43

Oh yeah, no, I agree. I my daughter, when she was born, I remember thinking about all the toys I'm going to buy her, but she was more interested in just playing with the things that were around. Like she liked to lay on the rug and play with the rug and things that were just there. She didn't need much to entertain herself.

HP: 15:03

Yeah. And, and I think for me, was just, I remember when I was young, was not a lot of people used to travel. I was actually one of the few, then I would go to Peru, see my grandmother, you know, there as well. You do mend a lot, you repair things. And, and also my German grandmother, would always look after mending, living sustainably, having her compost and, and yeah, just living a good life, but in accordance with nature and to just preserve things. And yeah, it was good.

EB: 15:40

So you attended a program at Cambridge about sustainable supply chain that you say strongly informed your business model where you are now. Tell us more about this business model for your company, Wellicious, and what is a sustainable supply chain really?

HP: 16:02

Yeah, I think what happened with Cambridge, it was just an excellent way to really have time to analyze the fashion supply chain and also work with other people, other students from different areas. And also just put everything in writing and really analyze in depth how you can change the system. Because sometimes you just need time.

HP: 16:31

So I launched my business in 2007. I've always focused on being sustainable by manufacturing, for example, in the EU. We used organic cotton in 2009. it was just very interesting for me to take a little bit time off and put everything on paper and also learn from other industries, other industries and also research papers and also as you know, when you do your thesis, all set up interviews, you learn from specialists. And I was very grateful that I could speak, for example, to sustainable leaders, for example, involved for it. I don't know if you know the company, the stopping company. they took their time to speak to me and just really listen and analyze what they have to say.

EB: 17:25

Did you go there with the idea of starting Wellicious or did that come?

HP: 17:30

Yeah, actually, I just found at one point that my company was not sustainable anymore. It was not sustainable anymore for me, the business model, but also the whole system itself, because the fashion supply chain is very complex. It has a lot of different steps and it's very complex. every half a year.

For example, in my case, other companies even launch the products every two months, every three months. But in my case, was every half a year. You just have to be quick. You have to confirm the colors at a certain point of time, otherwise to avoid any delays. But then you sell your products and if you don't sell everything off, then you have stock. Then you have to think, where do I sell the stock? Then also you need samples.

HP: 18:26

You know, for the sales people, but then they sent all the samples back. And then I thought, this is really weird. You just create a lot of waste as well.

EB: 18:35

Sounds like it.

HP: 18:52

And this is also where a lot of companies, and I'm sure that you also know this, where they start burning their stock because where they keep their margins. Yes, there have been quite a few companies that have been caught and I think there's even a new legislation. Or was it in France? I have to do some research on this, but where they say now that burning stock is not allowed anymore.

EB: 19:06

So instead of throwing it away, they burn it because they can't find it.  Yeah. To keep, yeah.

HP: 19:11

Yeah, you have to, I mean, it's also about branding, you know, if you, if you, for example, we were selling our stock to other companies, you know, to the discounters, you know, the stock, the leftover stock, and some companies don't want to destroy the brand, they tried to find other ways.

EB: 19:29

Yeah, cause if you're going to, guess like a used clothing store or I guess a reduced cost clothing store and you see this really high priced brand, it diminishes. wow. Okay. So they burn it. had no idea the value.

HP: 19:47

Well, now you know. But I don't want to say that a lot of all the companies do it, but they are really awesome. And they also have been called. Yeah.

EB: 19:57

Well, I saw like a number of photos of this. It's in South America. forget if it's. Is it Chile? There's, there's this like, what is it? It's like a island. No, it's not an island.

HP: 20:11

Landfill, landfill full of fashion.

EB: 20:13

Yeah, that's what it is. what, how did it all get there? Do you know? Obviously our companies are dumping it there, but.

HP: 20:19

No, I think what happens is the, and this is maybe also what I saw when I was living or when I was spending so much time in East Africa. So basically what happens, you buy clothing and then you get rid of the clothing. Maybe you give it to church and they send it then to Africa and then you can buy the second hand clothing there. But there's also a lot of clothing that can't be reused.

HP: 20:47

And I had also some discussions with my friends, for example, in Kenya. And I said, what do you think? I mean, it's destroying the whole, your whole culture, you know, also because they also have traditional clothing. And she said, yes, I agree. But on the other side, you don't see any people anymore that walk around with holes, for example, in their trousers. So I guess it has a good size and it's bad size, but in general it's destroying nature.

And, because also not all clothing can be used and then they dump it somewhere and, it's toxic for their environment. Yes.

EB: 21:24

Yeah, because I guess it's not all natural fibers. There's a lot of, you know, polyester and plastic fibers that are being dumped.

HP: 21:56

Yeah, this you're absolutely right. But I also had today a very interesting discussion because a lot of people talk about organic cotton or a lot of companies, my t-shirt is made from organic cotton. But as I said, the, the, the supply chain, the fashion supply chain is complex and it's not only about organic cotton. What do you use? Which dyes do you use? Which additives do you use? Where does organic cotton come from? You know.

Have they used pesticides? You know, it's, and this is sometimes where I think the consumer doesn't understand because organic cotton is only like a small segment of, of sustainability. By even if you say, I've bought an organic cotton t-shirt, even if you send it to, let's say to, to, to Chile, it can still be toxic.

EB: 22:16

Yeah, it is.

EB: 22:30

So there's so much behind the scenes that it's not very transparent. guess I haven't seen a lot of this stuff when I'm buying clothes.

HP: 22:38

Yeah. and yeah, I mean, I, I'm working in this segment. So I know, you know, there's so many, so many different steps, how to make a product sustainable. And I think it's a challenge also for the big companies. Yeah, that's why it's still in its beginnings.

EB: 22:57

Well, you talk a lot about rewiring consumer habits and that Willicious is a brand for anyone who wants to shop stylish, but also with a clean conscience. Can you talk more about how your company is changing consumer behaviors?

HP: 23:15

Yeah, I mean, I think, my passion is just to create products that are good for you and for the planet. Because this is also what I've learned now. know, sustainability is an evolution and also how I perceive my product. So actually the products that we do are not only good for the environment because they're safe. All the, my whole supply chain is certified by Cradle to Cradle, from picking to the warehouse and also the labels, the yarns, everything, the dyes that be used also, all the supplies need to be certified. So this is how we achieve a product, which is a non-toxic and we have the gold level of cradle to cradle and even for material health, we have platinum and

EB: 24:09

That's amazing.

HP: 24:11

Yeah, but what it creates is just a product that is really safe for the environment, that can return to nature safely. But what is good for the environment is also good for you, especially with exercise clothing. It's so important that you have a product, you sweat, it's close to your skin. it's good if the product also is, yeah, so in essence, it's also good for you.

EB: 24:39

Well, you talked a lot about cradle to cradle there. you tell us, maybe some of us don't know what cradle to cradle means. Can you define that term for us?

HP: 24:50

Well, Cradle to Cradle is basically a certification. The aim is to create products that are circular, that are not harmful to the environment. So basically you can only work with suppliers that are certified. So you are very limited. In my case, for example, we only had one yarn producer in the whole world that we could work with. one? Only one.

But this was also like five years ago, only one that could certified that their yarn is not using any toxins, for example. And yes, a lot of people are surprised when we tell them that our product development took up to six years because for example, we had to, and I'm very thankful to our manufacturers.

HP: 25:46

Normally you also tend to have different yarns to do the logo, to do the sewing. But we had to do everything with one yarn.

EB: 25:56

Yeah. Yeah. Geez. Well, that really sets you apart, right?

HP: 26:00

Yeah. So, to be honest, what I loved about this project the most, so Cambridge was already like amazing. I learned so much in theory, but doing this product was also like writing a thesis.

EB: 26:17

Yeah, it sounds like it. sounds like it's, well, the system is set up in the fashion industry, as you've described, totally against that idea of circular, right? So you have to work extra hard to change that system just to get out one yoga pants, right?

HP: 26:38

Exactly. And also, for example, for the fabric, we worked almost three years because in the beginning, you know, we're all very optimistic. And then we said, okay, let's use the same weight and texture of the organic cotton. Let's add the biodegradable elastane and just sew it together or weave it together. But then the fabric looked completely different because the texture example of the biodegradable elastane is just different. So that's why it took us so long to create a fabric.

EB: 27:19

Well, I read the book Cradle to Cradle like 20 years ago now. It's hard to say that because it makes me feel really old. But when I read that book about Cradle to Cradle products, it just made so much sense to me. And it also made me very mad because the whole way of our, of our lifestyles, right, is the opposite of that. And it made so much sense to not do it that way, but here we are, right? And you have to work extra hard to do a cradle to cradle when it shouldn't be that hard.

HP: 27:58

Yeah, but I think what I love about Creator to Great, it really helps you to create circular products because anything is waste. Apple is waste, the banana is waste, clothing is waste. But if you can return it safely to nature, then it's a good thing.

EB: 28:22

Yeah, totally. Yeah. And I don't see a lot of cradle to cradle products out there, which is why we brought you onto the season. Cause it's your, it's a rarity, but maybe I'm not looking in the right spots where are there places for people to look to find other cradle to cradle products outside of yoga.

HP: 28:40

I mean, for example, what really sets us apart that we are a brand focusing only on cradle to cradle. There are companies that launch products, but they have their normal products and then they add cradle to cradle products. And what really sets us apart, and I think we're actually right now the only brand which only focuses on cradle to cradle products.

EB: 29:07

Wow, wow, that's amazing, but also sad that more people, more companies aren't doing that.

HP: 29:12

But I mean, I don't want to, I don't want to, you know, judge anyone, but you know, we were two people working on this project and I just understood it's also a risk, you know, if you're like a company and for example, you say, let's change the comp, the whole production and let's only do cradle to cradle products. You see how long it took us to.

HP: 29:41

We do this and there were always steps that we did in a counter. Then for example, actually there were two yarn suppliers, but the other one doesn't exist anymore because the yarn broke when we sold our garment together. yeah, it's just a risk. If you're a very big company, you know, I'm a small company. So if things don't work out, you know, I have limited stock, but if you're a really big company, it's a risk.

EB: 30:09

It is, but the, need more people like you to change the system. So those big companies don't view it as a risk anymore because they see how successful Wellicious is.

HP: 30:23

Yeah, I think it's just important. Yeah, this is actually also what we wanted to see. also wanted to show, we wanted to show that it's possible to do a product like this. But I also had a very interesting discussion this morning. I think the main important thing is also to understand that sustainability in fashion is still in its beginnings. know, everyone is starting to do, to change the system.

So I don't want to say any competitor names or big names now, but you know, the old system is working continuously on creating fabrics that are lighter and better. And we, for example, start again and maybe our fabrics still need a little bit of help. And you know, we need maybe five to 10 years until

We create the same fabrics with the other companies are creating now. You know, though it is a little bit like maybe also a lot of there, you know, you have lots of love there and you need consumers that understand that what you do is also something new.

EB: 31:37

Yeah, well, I'm not going to say any companies either, but one starts with an N and I was at a conference where they were presenting their athletic clothing and they were thinking about sustainability from very different way and that they were thinking, well, let's create these running clothes or exercise clothes that you don't have to wash as much. that'll save on the amount of water being used in the world.

Very different approach, but the materials, I don't know what the materials were made out of. And maybe that now makes me pretty nervous about putting some of those on. We're hearing you talk about how toxic the dyes can be.

HP: 32:18

Yeah, I think this is the first step. I think the first step is understanding what can be harmful to you. But Eric, I think it's also a step-by-step process, you know? Like changing the system. And this is what I realized very soon. It's like, it's a step-by-step thing, you know, you can't change it from today or tomorrow. is...

EB: 32:42

It's too big. It's too big.

HP: 32:47

Because, yeah, because also there's a lot of innovation already in this, you know, within the companies and to change this is a big thing.

EB: 32:51

No, I have experienced that. have a papermaking studio and I don't use trees and I make it out of agricultural byproducts, like from the farms in the area. And my, when I started this, my mission was to change the paper supply chain from forest to farm. How naive was I 12 years ago that I thought, gosh, I'm going to do this. I'm still doing it, but it is, it is slow. It's really slow.

HP: 33:22

Yeah. And maybe this is also where we are right now. I mean, of course we have AI and on one side, the world is getting faster and faster, but on the other side, I think we're slowing down as well, no? In so many, for example, we have to learn to slow down, maybe don't fly as much on holiday as we were used to, slow down on food, that maybe we eat less meat, you know.

For example, I have to admit I'm not a complete vegetarian. just believe, okay, less is also good. Maybe once every two weeks, so slowing down. And maybe this is also what we need to learn with the fashion supply chain.

EB: 34:06

Yeah. Well, you, you, know about slow food and you talk about slow fashion. Can you talk about what slow fashion is and how does that compare to fast fashion?

HP: 34:17

Yeah, slow fashion just means that you don't manufacture in accordance of winter, fall, winter, spring, summer collections. What I said before, you manufacture, you know, when, for example, when you sold out or your product is limited. For example, in the past, we had so many different styles. Now we have limited styles. It's quantity over quantity. Fast over slow. So it's just being more mindful. And they're also different. You can even take it one step further where you say, I'm only going to manufacture when the customer, for example, puts in an order and maybe they have one day to wait for two months or three months until they get the product. It will not create a lot of waste. But our business model is more now we have products on stock.

Yeah, yeah, that's

HP: 35:14

And we can keep them for one year for two years, but it's okay.

EB: 35:20

Yeah. I mean, there's a sense of like timelessness sometimes when I was looking at your designs where, these could be good for, for many years in terms of how. Yeah. Yeah.

HP: 35:34

Exactly. Yeah. But I have to admit, mean, the customers are demanding, so you have to always maybe add one color or one style that really keeps you also interested or, you know, yeah, that your company continues to be interesting as well for the consumers. I think again here, this has been very interesting to me that, you know, social media,

People always want to see something new. yeah, it's really changing the system again. We're always talking about changing the system to also explain the consumers. Yeah, less is also more.

EB: 36:16

Yeah. Well, I mean, I, I noticed that when you have a great website, by the way, I was looking through everything that you have on there. Well, licious.com right. And notice there's no guys clothing. And I was, was hoping that could change the system, right? More guys, yoga clothes. That's an opportunity for you.

HP: 36:39

Yeah, I actually did once a yoga clothing line for men and I'm sorry, it did not so much demand. focusing right now.

EB: 36:50

Yeah, I feel like I'm not the best when it comes to understanding the fashion market, but I'm wondering about as you are a pioneer, I would say in the sustainable fashion industry, what advice do you have for those who are also hoping to transform existing systems for the better?

HP: 37:13

I think it's a lot of knowledge, analyzing your supply chain, also what I did as well as Cambridge, also analyzing other supply chains, creating a network, creating a network of people who have maybe already the knowledge, you know? And of course in my area, really work with someone who is an expert as well.

In cradle to cradle, I have to be honest without my cradle to cradle advisor, it would have been, I think almost impossible to launch this business. And you have to work together. What I love about sustainability is that it's working together. You know, you have to work. Yeah. And also the passion of the companies and also understanding that they are also innovating products, you know, if I say we are only, could only use one yarn. It's, it's, they are also innovators in their segments. So it's, it's also beautiful because you work with people who really want to make a change.

EB: 38:26

Yeah. Now you can be that mentor for somebody know that you are.

HP: 38:30

I hope one day.

EB: 38:31

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I was really curious about this when you were talking about all the, different, well, in particular, the one yarn manufacturer that you had to choose. There is a lot of roadblocks and limitations in the process for you. What kept you going? What kept you focused?

HP: 38:53

I think it's my mentality. I'm working, maybe she doesn't like now that I mentioned her name. I'm working with my colleagues, Cinzia on this project. She's Brazilian. I am South American and we would cry and laugh nonstop. And I think we both have just a positive mindset. We're always like, come on, let's get this going. And I have to say I'm a true entrepreneur. I want to learn, I want to grow, I want to change things, you know?

And I wanna, yeah, I just wanna make a difference.

EB: 39:28

Well, I can see that and I'm thinking about your life story and I see that especially with your parents, right? They were risk takers. They were moving all over and this is a risk to, like you mentioned, for big companies to try to be cradle to cradle. So I can see that sort of embedded in your character.

HP: 39:50

Yeah, for sure. as I said, and I think to be curious and to question things is just for me, it's a big inspiration. And the older I get, more passionate I am about this. It's easy to always continue the same thing and thinking out of the box is really, it's really nice.

Yeah.

EB: 40:15

Well, you and I are the same age and I won't say that what that is. but I'm inspired by the, your risk taking. Cause I think as I get older, I sometimes feel like I'm becoming more risk adverse. Do you have any advice for me to become more, to become less risk adverse? Cause I feel like you're kind of an inspiration for that.

HP: 40:40

Listen, as I said, it's also not always easy. told you that Cynthia and I, we also had like, when we had like these challenges, but I think what kept us always going is that we are a team. I think you need, let's say like a, like a team partner. Yeah. Because when you take a lot of risks, it always goes up and down, up and down. So when you are down, you need someone who pulls you up again, you know? And so I think with Cynthia, was like this when I was feeling low, she was like, come on, you can do it. And when she was feeling low, said, come on, let's, let's, let's do this. And I think that's why how it worked, to be honest. So you need a team and you need, you need people who have the mindset that you're looking for.

I need a team.

EB: 41:26

Yeah, for sure. Well, I'm curious about what you see coming in the fashion industry and the sustainability movement. What is your prediction for that?

HP: 41:37

Well, for me, it has been so interesting because all the analysis that we also did or that I did when I wrote my thesis, really true. me too, I think the biggest challenge is still that there too many certifications. So for example, my certification, the greater the greater, not a lot of people understand.

And I would even say, not even the people who work in sustainable fashion understand what we're doing. So I think this is the first hurdle. That people, that the knowledge is not there. And then the certification, you just have too many certifications. And I think the end consumer is a little bit confused. Then I think the second thing is the greenwashing. A lot of consumers don't necessarily believe companies anymore that are really doing something good.

Because they are used, what I told you before, that they're used, big companies telling them, we're sustainable because we use organic cotton, you know, which is only the small segment. So greenwashing is a, is still a very, very big, big challenge. And I think again, it's the mindset. I think the mindset is to be open and to really understand. And, because we, of course, logically, we try to work together with, for example, websites that already analyze the fashion supply chain. But yeah, sometimes, for example, we are on one website where we're not even, I think, from 100 % being a circular product, we have only achieved 82%, which for example, to me doesn't make any sense.

HP: 43:31

So there are just so many different variations how the people analyze sustainability. And I think it's a challenge if you really want to make a difference.

EB: 43:43

Yeah. Do you think there needs to be more regulation or policy on the fashion world to really push it to this model?

HP: 43:50

I think maybe it's patience, you know, you need patience because it's not, when did I start? 2009. So even the fashion revolution model is not so old yet, if you really think about it. So I think it will still take time until everything balances out. And what I also think that you really have to work together, know, and also that you support each other or companies like my company. We need a lot of support. You know, that people know that we exist, that we just do something different.

EB: 44:35

Yeah, agreed. And hopefully we can help. We can help you in terms of making sure more people know about, about, about Wellicious. Well, what's next for Wellicious? What's your, what's your hopes and dreams for the next couple of years?

HP: 44:51

Thank you. Yeah, what I love about what we do is we learn every day how to improve our products. Also, thankfully, Gradle to Gradle is also advancing. It's getting bigger, There more suppliers. Maybe there is a fabric that we can use in the future. So I think it's a quite exciting area to be in.

EB: 45:17

So, but you're leading the way, you're a pioneer. And so thank you for doing that.

HP: 45:24

Thank you.

EB: 45:25

Yeah. Well, I'm coming up to my, my, my last question for you. It's one of my favorites. Ask it to every guest. And that is if you were teaching a design class, what would you assign the students as, as a project?

HP: 45:41

I would maybe assign them as a project that they really understand from the beginning to the end and analyze how the fashion supply chain, for example, so that they really can understand that there so many areas where you can create a product that is not sustainable. And once you understand this, then you can make the change.

EB: 46:10

Yeah. So visualizing this very broken system of the fashion industry.

HP: 46:15

Yeah, really understanding and question because nowadays you talk a lot about recycling, recycling, but is recycling really sustainable?

EB: 46:24

Right, no, no, and then most plastics can't be recycled.

HP: 46:29

Yeah, so for example, recycling plastic, is it good? Is it not better to create a product that should stay not toxic?

EB: 46:40

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. This, this project you just described, was this also something that you started to do when you were starting Wellicious is understand and visualize the problem and then find your opportunity to interview.

HP: 46:54

No, I think for me, it was more like learning by doing because I worked before, you know, my company existed beforehand. And so it was more like, yeah, using my knowledge and yeah, basically using the foundation that I already had.

EB: 47:11

I really like your project because it is one where this someone can visualize this vast system and see where it's broken and find areas. Like you said, one step at a time, right? To intervene. They're not going to change the whole system all at once, but they're going to find these opportunities to, to to make that more of a circular model. So I think that's, that'd be a great project.

HP: 47:44

Yeah. it's also, and I have to say, you also have to look at also positively that it's actually, it's, it's, and this is also part of our vision, you know, that sustainability can also be fun, you know?

EB: 47:59

Yeah, you gotta make it fun.

HP: 48:12

You know, you make it fun and you say, how can we do it? And instead of, my God, this is going to be so hard. it can also be like a fun thing to do, you know? I believe, and I can say this because I'm also half German where perfectionism is so important. But I can also say, yeah, maybe 70 % is also good enough for now, know? 70 % and then we aim for the 80, for the 90, and then maybe in 15 years we aim for the 100. But it doesn't have to be always, it's, you know, it's flowing, it's growing and it's changing.

And also when you work on yourself, when you say, oh, what you said before, I want to be more, what did you say before? I want to be more a risk taker. It doesn't, it doesn't happen from today and tomorrow you're not going to wake up and you're going to be a risk taker.

EB: 48:58

That's right, I'm risk-averse. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. I think that that model of incremental steps is just how it's going to work because we're human and we have our own weird foibles and, that's just what humanity's like. we're kind of change is constant, but we don't like it.

HP: 49:19

Exactly.

EB: 49:20

Yeah. Well, thank you, Heike. It's been an amazing conversation. You are doing fantastic work over there and I truly appreciate what Wellicious is and what it is going to do in the future. Maybe one day men will want to buy yoga clothes and you can, you can add them back into your, your inventory.

HP: 49:43

Yeah, thank you so much, Eric. has been a pleasure talking to you.

EB: 49:47

Thank you. So I enjoyed that interview with Heike and I'm back here with Bhavna again to unpack what we heard and come together with some calls to action for climate from this episode. Bhavna, what was your first big call to action from Haike's conversation?

BB: 50:14

I have so many. if I had to pick one, probably, like the top one, would probably pick the importance that somebody can possibly give to trying to draw from different parts of their roots to understand which values are important to them and try to amalgamate that in whatever it is they're doing now. I think.

Ha ha ha.

BB: 50:38

Like in Heike's case, right? She's from different places. Like she, she drew values from Africa, from, from her experiences in Germany, from Latin America. And I think all of them put together is what feeds into how she approaches things for her brand. And I think that can easily be compared and assimilated into our daily things, whatever we're doing today, like everybody.

EB: 51:06

Yeah, for sure. And my biggest one from the conversation, I believe was also one of yours. So that's good that we both felt that way. And for me, I think one of the big calls to action is for people to learn more about how things are made, where things are made and choose more wisely and that's going to get into certifications, which is a call to action that I won't steal your thunder there, but the how things are made, where things are made. And to really decide like if you're going to buy clothing, for instance, and we know a lot about fast fashion from other episodes on Climify and just the media, are you going to buy brand new clothing? Are you going to buy clothing that's resale and why?

What's better, right? Cause Heike talked about the importance of if you are moving and sweating, the type of clothing that you're wearing can have an impact on your own personal health. So, yeah, maybe that is a great time to buy well, ICHIS fabrics then versus something else. So that's just a big thing for me is like, I think we need to be still more earnest about learning and how things are made.

BB: 52:34

Yeah. And I think what you said about Heike’s point is very important because it's important for an individual to understand what they need. Like you can buy something just because somebody tells you to. I think it's important to understand that these are your lifestyle habits. This is what you're doing. This is what your body needs. And your purchase patterns should probably cater to that.

And not just because your friend told you to get something because it's Right. mean, sure. I'm not saying you shouldn't, but I think that should not be a priority.

EB: 53:14

Yeah, that gets into advertising, right? then I still remember, I think it was Victor Papenac and I'll probably mess up the exact quote, but he talked about advertising and how it convinces you to buy things you don't need with money you don't have to impress people who don't care. Right. And it's a challenge, right? Cause we are being bombarded with messaging by marketing and advertisers about how we need to live our lives. And I think that goes back to the values you brought up about high key and that stay true to your values. And I think that will help guide you better in life than just trying to look the coolest or, whatever that may be.

BB: 54:06

And listening to your body and your lifestyle needs is very important.

EB: 54:12

Yeah. I know it's harder when you're in high school, right? And wanting to fit in. went through that too. And I guess even today it's still hard.

BB: 54:25

I had uniforms in high school and I'm kind of grateful for that.

EB: 54:29

Yeah. I mean, I was like on the fence about that, but I'm wondering maybe uniforms are better for that age. Yeah.

BB: 54:34

It was comfortable because we had like a regular school uniform and we had like tracksuits and a t-shirt for like the sports. We had sports. So the tracksuit was really comfortable.

EB: 54:50

Yeah, I mean, we obviously I didn't and I didn't know anyone who had uniforms, but I remember being very against them when I was younger. I would never wear a uniform, but now that I'm older, I'm thinking, well, maybe I would have been easier. For all of us.

BB: 55:04

So much indecision in the morning.

EB: 55:07

What am I going to wear? Well, you have one option, so put it on.

BB: 55:12

And then that was really, really good. And I think when I got to college, I really missed that.

EB: 55:18

Yeah, well, did you want to talk about certifications? Because that was one that we both agreed was a huge call to action.

BB: 55:24

Yeah, for sure. Because I think that there's so many certifications about like running about everywhere. And also I think we discussed this in the beginning of the episode, people really need to start learning what certifications are important in the products that they use every day. could be food products, your regular FMCG products, your clothes, furniture, your houses.

BB: 55:50

So all of these things and I'm sure there's more out there have different kinds of certification that mark the level of sustainability or supply chain practices that they have. For example, know that Wellicious is I think they're cradle to cradle certified platinum. Right. And that's, that's a certification that is important to look out for. And I mean, architecture, have lead certifications and things like that. mean, I'm not an architect, so don't know too much about it. There's so much out there. And also, there's, I think, the kind of fabrics that you use, like, for example, think again, Wellicious has organic cotton. That's I want to say GOTS.

EB: 56:40

Yeah, GOTS, that stands for the global organic textile standard. And that's a very important certification if you get that.

BB: 56:49

And I think looking out for these things in the products that you use is going to give you an idea of, okay, this is where the things that I own were made. This is how it was made. And that automatically puts you one step closer to understanding your own lifestyle, the things that exist in your everyday life.

EB: 57:10

Yeah. Yeah. I find certifications can get into greenwashing. So one of the big questions I think, or one of the big call to actions that we all have is to, you're going to have to do your homework, unfortunately, right? Cause there's, there's a lot of that, you know, nonsense out there and what are some certifications to trust? Well, I did a little digging to learn more about some of the sustainability certifications. And Wellicious has a bunch that are on this list. So the global organic textile standard is definitely one to trust. There's one called positive luxury, 1 % for the planet. If you're a certified B corporation, that's a really important one. There's a standard 100 certification.

This is kind of a cool name. love it. Leaping bunny. I haven't seen that out in the world. And it's really about cruelty free products. And one that I'm very aware of is the rainforest Alliance and then the green business bureau. I think that's mainly in the U S but there's others that are good too. And, and so I think that's just a call to action for all of us is we need to learn more. Right. We need to be more vigilant. Yeah.

BB: 58:37

And one other thing that I remembered is a lot of people might have seen whether or not the products or skincare products that they use is cruelty free, that they're not being tested on animals. And it's generally written somewhere in the back of the bottle usually. And I think that's also, that's just something that I suddenly remembered that people can look out for because these are products that everybody has.

EB: 59:02

Yeah. Yeah. And that's an important point that you made before we started recording, which was a high key as a guest is talking about things that all of us can relate to. are all trying to wear clothing every day and we have beauty and skincare products and, and hair products. And so these are things where certifications come into play. And so she's talking to all of us in this interview.

BB: 59:30

Yeah, and I think the biggest like common thing is to make sure that you're being intentional about the products that you have and are using so that you know everything about.

EB: 59:42

Yeah, for sure. Were there any other major calls to action that you wanted to bring to the forefront?

BB: 59:49

Probably something that I would like to conclude on with calls to action is the value of being healthy skeptic. feel like greenwashing is something that has pushed people's skepticism to the other extreme. It is important to be skeptical of what you see to make sure that, okay, this is indeed the right thing. That's good for you. That's good for the planet. And I feel like it's probably maybe pushed to the other way where people are just overly skeptical about things. And maybe it's just important to kind of take a step back and see what you're being skeptical about and the value of it in doing the research. I I think it just comes down to making sure you do the research on things that you're buying. Yeah. And like, it, there's a, it might be difficult, but there's a lot of value to shifting consumer behavior.

Like your own consumer behavior towards all of these products, because something's maybe, maybe now is the time to start moving from products for like instant gratification versus products that last you that much more longer. There's value to timelessness in the things that you own, especially clothes. mean, the other things are probably perishable. Like clothes are still something that will last you a while, right? And if you are good in the way you're thinking about it and researching about it, it will be beneficial because you can buy something now that's probably going to last you a good 10-15 years.

EB: 01:01:29

Yeah, Heike talks about that as slow fashion, right? Right, exactly. Yeah. So if you're going to make a purchase, think about it. Do you need to make this purchase and support those companies and people and organizations who are like Heike, who are really investing in the future? so...

EB: 01:01:55

I think that leads to my like sort of wrap up call to action, which was that support those people, right? Those people are doing the work and if we support them, they'll support us and we'll help change that system. Look at the supply chain problem that Hikey ran into, right? It's we need to fix that.

BB: 01:02:20

Yeah, 100%.

Oh, and one more thing. If anybody wants to check out Heike’s website, it's Wellicious.com. We'll make sure to put it in the description.

EB: 01:02:30

We will. Well, Bhavna it was fun seeing you again. It’s back to back episodes and it was great to unpack this with you.

BB: 01:02:38

Yeah, it was really fun. Thanks for having me.